PAPIO

Brian Fitzgerald. I first met you on my first date, Carfax, almost two years ago. You were when the first people I paired with and I was totally floored when I found out that you were about nineteen at the time because of how mature and experience you were as a person and a programmer throughout our time of Carfax, you've always been a source of new ideas for me and the team and a person who is very easy to get into in that discussions on a variety of topics.

So that's what I wanted to explore further in this interview. Brian. It's January second, two thousand eighteen. Thanks for joining me. The first question is, think it'll what's the best thing for human being? Best thing for human being for any human being. Yeah, Ah, or you. You could put it in context, the context of your own life. I think it's important to have a like, a consistent sort of source of happiness, something that you can kind of rely on.

Ah, so I guess, I guess like stability, discipline or kind of both important to that. At least a lot of for what I do. That's what's been really important to make. Make the things that I do happen is having a good base of, like, you know, like I don't need to worry about a lot of things so I can focus on what's important to me, which is my work stuff I designer do or, you know, make or whatever. When you say, Ah, source of happiness, I think that's interesting because, you know, some people might say, Oh, happiness is the best thing for human being But you said a source of happiness.

Um, and then you mentioned something about you can focus on the things that you really want to like. What? What is the source? Is it depend on the time of day or ah, depend on the time of year? No. Or just the activity that you are doing currently or if your programming, what's the source of happiness? Well, so I made that. Maybe I made that intentionally, maybe a little and big us or make because I know for a lot of people they're they're like the thing that they draw happiness or contentment from your satisfaction.

It's probably more satisfaction than happiness. But the thing that day draw their satisfaction from is probably different than mine. So I don't want to, like box it into just how I see it. I see, like a good program are always trying to Jenner sized things. Yeah, Um yeah, Yeah, It's ah, important. Ah, bye. Yeah, from me in particular. A lot of my happiness just comes from, you know, working on stuff, making things, you know, designing things or, you know, just the thing that gets me up in the morning is just the things I'm working on.

And knowing that, like today, I could make, like, measurable prop progress on a thing that like an idea, a concept there's something that is exciting to me. And did your parents and still that in you, or did you have to figure that out on your own? Or did your parents ever come to you and say, You know, Brian, this is that This is what the good life is. This is what happiness is. This is what you know.

Satisfaction isn't how you get it. No, I don't think my father ever, like sat me down. I was like, All right, Brian, we're gonna We're gonna I'm gonna tell you the meaning of life and how to get how to be happy. But it was probably a combination of both those things. Ah, not explicitly, but my dad was my dad's, a journalist on DSO. His job is basically taking on projects and like figuring out like he is like to put journalism in like engineering terms or like the terms that I'm more familiar with.

You have basically a problem like you have something that you need to investigate something some, something that's, like, notable that you need to go look into. And then you need to figure out, like how you're going to cover it. You're going to figure out, like, what are the practical requirements? So like how to cover it? Like, who do you talk to, what documents you get, and then you work on that thing and you, you know, you do make something like a finished product in the end, and then you release it, and you do that consistently.

Unlike a. I think he worked like every story would take maybe a month or so a couple weeks a month. And so I remember going up like that, that process and him being very focused on that with something that I think I did internalize to a degree and I know when I was growing up for a long time, I wanted to be a writer. And so, like if you go talk to people I know knew growing up, like if I tell people that like I'm a programmer and I haven't seen them in a very long time, they're always really surprised or confused because they figured I would be like They'd like me doing anything math related, You know, our engineer related is weird because I was always very interested in writing and, you know, like storytelling and all that kind of stuff.

I can't I couldn't tell you where that stuff came from, but, I mean, it's you can connect the dots that it was probably probably related to my dad in some way. And on the first thing that you mentioned, the release cycles, I can't help but compare it to coding, and I know that's probably why you're even mentioning it. But it's just as opposed to someone else's parent who, for example, has a job where they punch in and punch out every day.

And you know they don't work on necessarily a particular project in particular, and it has a starting, and it just kind of like going to work every day. Ah, you kind of see the satisfaction of, like I finished this this project, and it wasn't the biggest project. But, you know, it was substantial and is rewarding. And you get to see that I see what you're saying. You've internalized those things and that maybe if source of where your habits come from Yeah, I think so.

Like, he would like, my dad would always come home lake later in the day, like, seven or eight because he would spend, like, a lot of time working on these things. And just like when when the one thing that I've also I think like I didn't notice at the time, but I I like recently, more recently have kind of connected back to my dad, like just watching him growing up is just that that what is it like Basically, that that focus on something and like like, basically having this thing where, like, my dad, Dad was originally like a philosophy Major Wright.

That was like, is his plan going into things? Yeah, and he was always, like, very interested. He was always like a big reader on big into just, you know, like browsing Wikipedia, browsing, like new star tickles and all that kind of stuff. And then he found a way to basically, like, practically be able to do that, do the thing that he really cared about consistently on, like, a daily basis, like going into work and working on the thing you care about making that, like, a realistic thing that you could do a za job.

Yeah, um, which requires you like to go from, like, philosophy to like journalism, like you have to sacrifice some aspects of that like dream or whatever. Like it's a different It's a very different thing you do day today between being like a philosophy on a grad student writing like possible philosophical treatise, sees treatises and being a journalist. But he saw he saw. Journalism is like a practical way of doing the things that he cared about and saw in, like, philosophy and these other kind of areas that he was interested in when when he went to school.

Hm, That's interesting, because I wouldn't have thought initially that philosophy in journalism are the closest of siblings. But then again, storytelling encoding are is even a bigger jump, so maybe it runs in the family. So what, You also went to school at this place called Governor French, Right? And, you know, I was talking to Connor here a couple months ago, and he's telling me about the school, and it's a private college prep high school.

Yes, you could say. And, ah, you two are like the only people that I know that have come from there. Uh, and both of you left college after a year to come work at Carfax. Is that a coincidence? Are would you say there's something interesting about that school in way prepared you college prep and then to, like, leave college early to because you already got a great job. So, yeah, so a big part of the school's like mantra or like thing.

They're like messages like It's a college prep, right like that was how they sold it. So like to them. The fact that Connor and I have dropped out is like a negative thing. Most likely they released as faras. I know. Understand? Having talked to them a little bit since I left. But ah. With with with Ah, Governor French Connor and I both Aah Found ways to basically spent a lot of time doing what we cared about, um which ah, for me was like programming and a swell is like a lot of other things.

Like I got I was something that I'm really really I'm grateful for. Is that basically, like in my life I've just had a ton of time to spend on the things that I care about the you know, that. The things that I was really interested in. And I think going to Governor French and like both Connor was a huge part of this, too. Just like being ableto have someone to, like, talk Teo and basically be able to, like, you know, I have some sort of, of, like, reference point or someone to like, bounce ideas and stuff off of and no like, I'm not crazy and weird for you know, spending a lot of time on typing things into computers, right?

Um, but I I think that was the main thing was just having a lot of time to focus on programming and, like, no, Both both be able to get to a point where I could do it professionally on my own and then also, ah, have the confidence to know I can't do this on my own. And I can, like, produce stuff. And I'm, you know, just have that self confidence, I think. And what age did you start coating? Ah, think. The first cyber.

I did anything coding related. I was like, eleven or twelve. So what type of eleven or twelve year old er has the confidence to say that? You know, I'm in a time in my life where I can spend a lot times time working on the things that I care about, which is coding or whatever. And maybe you didn't start having that that mindset that early. But like, what gave you that sort of conference at an early age to say like, God, this is what I really care about.

Because, I mean, if I had to talk to most eleven or twelve or thirteen year olds, they would probably be more concerned with, ah, not like serious life exercises. And like thinking about what they want to spend their life doing and what not. Yeah, I know. I certainly wasn't that way. I I know it. Twelve. I wasn't. I thought of it more in terms of like, I think video games are neat and I want to make video games.

So sent around video games. Yeah, like I could tell that there is something like interesting about them that wasn't just like the gameplay, but just the idea of like a virtual world was like, cool to me and I just saw coding is like it's part of the whole like making a video games which I saw was, like kind of an extension of, like, like writing. Like I was big into, like, early on, I was really into, like, writing comics.

Like comics. Yeah, like a comic book. Yeah, okay. Or like my big inspiration was Calvin and Hobbes. And I would like, like it's tried and sketcher like Trace Calvin Hobbes cartoons, right. And that comes back to the story telling, But are you talking about this time in your life as the transition point between wanting to be a writer and to to like wanting to be a programmer? Yeah. I mean, I didn't really seriously call myself a programmer until it was like, I don't know, maybe sixteen or so.

You mean like, the thing that I was practicing was making video games, which I there was. I think I basically just saw video games is like, this need extended form of, like, comics. Or like I knew I wanted to do stuff. That was like like, I like comics. I like writing. I liked all this stuff. Vegans was just like another thing that I, Saul, was neat. And so it was like, Oh, I'll learn how to make video games like that.

Should maybe take a couple of months, and then I'll be good at it. And it's been it's been almost a decade, and I'm still okay at it. So, you know, a little little off the mark there, but, well, there's a reason why become these, like, valve, you know, higher tens of thousands of incredibly talent people. And they spend years working on a singular title. Yeah. So, I mean, I was twelve, right? Like I had no idea what I was getting into it.

Just like this thing is neat. I'm going to get good enough at this to make something. And that was my goal. And I continue to be that naive. Remember what language you started writing games in his. Connor told me he's something about power point games, and that totally just blew my mind because I was unaware that you could You could write code and power point or whatever, but I assume it wasn't quite that for you.

Yeah, it's weird. I actually, um so remember doing stuff with, like, the doom do math editor. And then the I spent my main main one was Hammer, which is Thie source level editor on DH. For that, it was a combination of Luna and C Plus plus, which I was never like, very, very good at or anything I just knew howto like the script levels and that kind of thing. Ah, what else? I also it's it's weird. Like I I remember trying out unity when I was like twelve or thirteen and I still like unity is what I used today present and that that was that was Java script.

Unity is JavaScript use of Java script support. OK, I think it was their own special brand of job's critical unity scripts, though ecstatically types so on improvement over regular jobs, to be sure. A lot of different stuff tried out scratch. There's this thing called Alice that, Ah, it was like like a three d version of scratch. Have you heard of Do you know what Scratches. Is it that visual you're going wing, Which I've heard about it.

Yeah, it's like a visual programming language for kids. And anything about it was that had this, like, community of people like it had this on little Social Network, where you could post it is very similar to like flash games or whatever. Like you would make these scratch games with this, like very, very simple visual programming language. Like all these big, colorful blocks. I think their target age is like, like five to fifteen or something.

So it's very, very simple. Uh, but, um, it was probably like the youngest age group centered like video game development community. And I mean, it's still out there, so probably still is. But they was this whole like social network somewhere like new grounds or whatever, Where you could, you could make thes scratch games, which again, like very, very rudimentary and post them. And then, you know, like you could rate other people's and play other people's, and there was, like, a popular list or whatever.

So I made a bunch of a bunch of scratch games and eventually got one to be on, like, the top ten of that week. And I was like, This is like my crack like I'm This is for real. I'm really, you know, really doing great stuff here. So that was I remember that being a big deal for me about So that was That was a thing. I did scratch for a while, And then I did all sorts of stuff like Warcraft. Three maps, Team Fortress, two maps, Gerry's ma.

I don't know a lot. Just pretty much anything I could found with some sort of like s t. K. Would just try and make stuff for cool. So then you went to college for a year and ah, and then left. Coming. Carfax, when you left college to work full time here, Carfax, were you or your family and friends concerned was a tough decision to make. He was, um and I think the thing was I was just not happy at school. Like I didn't have time to focus on the things I wanted to do.

And I realize, like, if I graduate, I'm gonna have all this debt and I'm going Teo, that's going to be another like thing that's going to keep me kind of stressed or like not be able to focus on what I want to do, which I was like, I had a lot of ideas making games, making, like writing or whatever like this that I saw. Like, if I stay in college and graduated like I'm gonna he really stress that I'm gonna not be able to do focus on the thing that I want to do.

But if I take this this opportunity that I saw, then I'd be able to start working on that stuff like next week. So that was kind of, you know, I made that decision and then I thought more about it afterwards, and your parents thought that was a good way to approach the problem. I assume I'm not sure you could say that, but I think I think knowing that Conner is on it. And it worked out for him. Ah, that that really helped.

Oh, that's right. Because he did that a year before You. Basically? Yeah. Or so he didn't do the internship thing? I don't think, but he start working about a year before you did. Yeah, so I was able to say, like, Hey, Connor's Connor's not, like, descended into madness or whatever. So, you know, it might work out for me. Sure. And in terms of your programming style, I'm curious. I'm just like some vaguer abstract level in non technical terms.

How has your coding style evolved? Since you know, you were in your teenage years versus now being in the industry for a couple of years, working on projects every day. Well, Yeah, so so, like, I mean, when I when I was very I think it's kind of it's kind of gone in a circle where I started out. Like not knowing how to structure things. And so just be like, how do I get this thing to work? And just like that, you know, like the simplest or not the opposite is like the most complicated by, like the thing that will just make it work fast.

Like I just wanted to get get things like glue things together and get him to work. Andi, I didn't really care about structure or like code base or whatever, because, like, it's just me working on this thing, so no one else is going to read it. And like I would I would write the code for, like, opening a door, right? Or like some other, like, video game thing, like over and over for every single door in my game, because I I was okay with, like, I didn't know any better, but I was just okay with doing that.

And then as like as I started to get more serious about it. And that type of stuff I wanted to do changed from like stuff. There was more narrative, more like systems base. I realised, like I'm going to need to be a lot better programming in order to make this kind of thing. Can you explain what that means? Narrative to systems based? Yeah. So I guess, I guess, is basically like the amount of time spent on, like, like, level design or like writing like, Okay, so specifically, talking about video games here.

Yeah. So yeah, so, like the, like, a very like, narrative based game is something where, like a lot of time is spent on the levels and like dialogue, you're content something like half life. Maybe we're just like it's you keep going and going and going on this story. Yeah, I guess you could say yes. Yeah, exactly like half life are like text adventure games or whatever, although some of those could get pretty system heavy.

But, yeah, that that kind of stuff and then, like a systems, have his game systems. Heavy game is something like like civilization, right where it's like it's all the story is is basically generated from some sort of system. And that's, you know, I guess easy, concise way to think about it is like how much of the players experience is decided by the level designer and how much of it is designed by that programmer.

Done. And so I wanted to do stuff that was more, you know, closer likes civilization and strategy games. And whatever I say, you build like a platform, right? And that that forces you to think more abstract. Lee Um, because it's like when you first start coating it, you just have like, one giant file, and you just keep going line one line two and three and you just use just if then, yeah, and there's like, no abstraction.

It's just a completely linear experience in the code and the result. But as you make things more complicated and have more complicate ideas, you're forced to be more abstract. Yeah, I've seen the same pattern of growth in a number of different people for like programming skill, where it's like you start with, like just wanting things to work and, like like like writing the same door code over and over, and then you start getting more systems heavy.

And for whatever you're doing, you just need for whatever you're doing. You just need to be better at that thing or else you're just going to write the same code over and over. And then you get better at that. And then you lied. That leads you to a very place where you're writing code that is like way to structure and way too, like abstracted and whatever. Like yeah, you know, lots and lots of like subclass ing or whatever or suit like I'm thinking about, like, very, very heavily object or into code, like riding an interface aura type for like every tiny little part of your thing.

Ah, but then, working in the real world for long enough, you, you start to kind of ah, get a fuel for like what? What requires, like that level of architect ing and thought. And what doesn't and you start to be able to discern, ah, like how to spend your time, basically. And then I think it seems like people like from that point, it's really just about training, that skill of knowing, like what Level of architect ing toe put on a certain system.

Yeah, that's interesting, because I have another question that's, you know, often and coding we're faced with the duality between doing it right and getting it done. But just pretty relate to what we're talking about. But often when you're getting it done, you just like, whatever Ah, copy and paste or whatever. And when you're doing it right, it's like you're hyper focused on the Thea, making sure nothing's repeated everything is this clean as possible and dry, Um, but at the same time, it sometimes it just takes so long toe like abstract everything out.

It's just like, Well, this is This is a rather incident project like it's a waste of my time that you spend any more minutes on this and you just have that life. Tell yourself like, stop. Yeah, like for for my more recent projects, They're a lot less structured then. Like if you looked at the code I wrote maybe three or four years ago, it will be a lot more structure than the stuff here right now. Wow, you're so like, like tone, which is like of fairly recent, um there's may be only two or three parts of it that air, like, really heavily structured, and the rest of it is very sloppy or very like you would.

It looks sloppy. Um, and it is. But it's also, um, like it's. It's something that's like a simple operation is done in a very simple way, and I didn't really put much more thought into it because the possibility that I'm going to have to remove it or change it to whatever is pretty, pretty high. And so that that's so doing things means that Aiken Aiken iterated on the products and on the user experience a lot faster than if I had something that was really, really heavily structured, right?

OK, yeah, that makes complete sense. It's like M V P. You do whatever you have to do. Just get out the door and it's one of those things that's like, if the idea or the at falls flat, for example, and no one wants to use it or whatever, which is not the case. It's home, then then Ah, have actually been using a lot more of these days he's just responding to I don't know why I'm getting more used to talking to my phone because of this time tracking stuff.

But anyways, it's like, if if you make something and you spent all this time on it and it's like you get done with everything you like, this idea wasn't going anywhere. It's just like all that time he spent reasoning about the abstraction and getting everything perfect is just a waste. Pretty much just It slowed you down and it was all for nothing. So yeah, no, it definitely makes me not stress as much over, and that has allowed me to be a lot more free with, like how I design things like, I think if I if I had, like, written all over it was like this perfect, like a diamond of code, there's perfect like, you know, crystalline structure and then put it out there and then people don't like a certain features that I would think I spent twelve hours writing that feature.

There's no way in hell I'm getting rid of it, and that's the wrong decision to make in that right. And, yeah, I mean, writing of M. V. P is like it's a skill in itself, and again, it's like it's You have to be really good if you have to have trained that that ability to basically do your own like cost, benefit on everything you write or do to a pretty good degree in order to really pull it off. And it's I feel like there's still a lot of room for Mito.

Be better at that. Sto. Yeah, cool. So when you do have an idea for an app or game or whatever, how do you know when it's worth spending time on. So this is actually, this is actually question. I thought you had asked me. Well, you thought I would ask you this question, Okay. I don't know why, but yeah, so my process is kind of it's kind of screwy, but it's my process, and no one else has to use it. Which, um, I think I think a lot of it's still rooted in the way that I used to and still do, like, write stuff in the sight of, like, a story idea is good.

Ah, which is like I will have some concepts or whatever. And I will. I will, like, write it down. And I will just like, think about it and not really do anything with it. But basically, like, I'll just I'll write it down to make sure there's some sort of copy of it. But I'll just keep it in my head, like if I, you know, suddenly have an idea that's, like, interesting. You're good or whatever. I'll just keep it in my head.

And if it keeps recurring over and over, like, I can't get rid of it. Ah, and this this usually is like a couple of months. Like if an idea's still, like, feels like a live to me or like is exciting in, like, a couple of months. Yeah, and it feels like the only way they, like, get it out is to do it. That's really the point in which I, like, actually spend time on it. So tone, for example, which is now just a for the for the record, maybe I just let you explain that what it is, and then we'll use this as an example.

Yeah. So I guess if there were an elevator pitch for it, it's basically a automatic autumn made it diary system. So ah, you you sign up for this thing and it will text you some questions like two, three times a day, and each question will be something like, How are you feeling? What are you doing right now? And so the ideas you respond to that text goes into a little database, and then at the end of each week, you get a big list of all the answers, even back.

And so the reason I made this is because I I wanted like I wanted to start doing, like, a journal or diary. But I'm not very good at starting new habits, and I think most people aren't. And so, you know, being the program, right? Just society. I will. I will write something to make this process easier. Do basically do that. The legwork for me. Um, and it was it was that, combined with, like, a lot of discussion I had with Connor about, like, like, basically, like Timekeeping journal, keeping that kind of thing on just just a lot of like, thinking about those things and like how, like, what are the things that I value in my day or want to, like, record?

Like what? What's the useful information that I can look on later on in life, even if it's like the next week and get something useful from on. So I started thinking about, like, various. Like like, how would I build something that extracts that data, right? Yeah. And you know it. I like the idea idea for Tom just kind of came out of it. Feels like it came to me like kind of fully forms. Like I just thought of, like, this concept.

And again, it's just kind of sat in my brain for awhile. Okay, So in this case, it followed your format of, you know, deciding how much time to spend on it. You let us in your mind for a while before you actually executed it. Yeah. Um, yeah, I realize that important you think? Like, because sorry to interrupt, but, like, is it, Like, have you in your lifetime gone to things where you just, like, make something immediately and, you know, like, wake up.

The next thing you know, like that was a waste of time. I'm never going to use this or Yeah, no, I definitely have. I think it comes from again with, like, with with writing, you can really get into You can really get jazzed up on my idea and being your convince yourself it's good and then be in that spot. We're like, you've written something and it doesn't really click or it doesn't really work. And you're like, I'm sure there's something good in here, and I just got a fiddle with it and mess with it until it works.

But I'm sure there's some like a diamond. I just gotta polish this thing. You can spend a lot of time and effort on that and not really get anywhere or like you'll just You're you're not You're also not getting any better at the thing. Yeah, and so I think the the waiting or like the kind of delay is, is kind of a response to that where, like some ideas, are like exciting and neat in a moment. But then, like you think of them again in a week, or if you don't think of them at all, thinness, an obvious sign and you know it does.

It's not relevant to you or your life or and if it's not relevant to your life, it probably would be relevant other people's lives, but something something that's like affecting and, like compelling enough to like, actually spent a lot of time on which, like writing an app in writing anything, whether it's a short story or a novel or whatever, it takes a lot of time to do well, like it's a pretty big investment.

And so, like I want to only spend that much time on stuff that, like, is really, seriously, ah, like, compelling and relevant to me and there's this, like quality of like alive nous I I don't think that's my term. I I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere else. But like there's this quality of like a lightness toe, certainly concepts of certain stories or music, or it seems like it's a really common thing.

But, like certain things feel alive in a way that's hard to really like, quantify or pin down. I mean, the idea itself has some sort of vitality that you just kind of you let the idea sit and starve, and you think in mine, IRA, how much idea how much life does this idea have? I'm going because I'm going to squeeze out every bit of it and see if you can survive, you know? Yeah, there's some I'm turning this into a weird thing, but like, if it's a good idea, basically we're saying is that it'll still have the same vitality when you revisit it, right?

Yeah, it's like, I think the way you put it is actually pretty accurate, like, um Yeah, it's it's It's really hard to pin down what it is, but it's like you can't You can't ignore it like it's impossible. Ignore Get out of your head. It's like you have to do something with it on. I've just had certain ideas or things that are like that, and that's my barometer. I don't have you have good Bharat barometers.

I like that you've used that word more than once released. Maybe it was before we started recording, but I like the I like that word barometer. Um, keeps you level headed. Ah, and where you where you want to spend your time with whatever. And so Tom you made him out of. Like you said, you had difficulty forming habits, as everyone does. And I kind of think that all programmers are inherently lazy anyways because we're always trying to get a machine to do our work more or less whether that be, you know, like processing and online orders, sitting out oil change alerts or something.

Ah, for the company or automating lights when you come home. To what degree do you attempt to automate your life? That was the original question, but I didn't plan on having this tone discussion before, like what I'm asking now, I guess, is that is this something that you do? A lot is automated things in your life on a very ah exact, verbatim. What's the word I'm looking for here, Right? Like a regular regular thing that, Yeah, I I feel like it's kind of the opposite.

Like I don't really I'm hesitant, automate things and again unless, like, it's something, it's something that just keeps nagging at me that, like, I really ought to do this. So what you're saying is it takes quite a bit of nagging before you're like I got to automate that whereas, like talking about the lights, things or, like all this home automation stuff, like, you're less inclined to chase after that.

It really takes a lot of like, Ah, nagging or agitation in the thing to make you go like our right. I'm putting this thing to bed, Yeah, I think it's part. I think part of it comes down to having being just discerning. About what? What you automate? Making sure you don't, like, overstep that and you don't accidentally, like, stomp on something that's actually valuable or interesting? That might look inefficient.

No. So, yeah. I think it's programmers. We have a tendency to go like toe like over automate things or you no see things is an optimization problem, and so probably part of that is just a reaction to that bias that I see. And just trying, trying to be thoughtful about it. So you know, like, I don't have the like lights, automation or anything. Uh, partly because I just, like, you know, flipping on a light switch or like doing that.

But what you're saying is that programmers tend to be they tend to over engineer things. And just like everything's a problem that can be solved there, automate. And it's just It's not all those things are really important, and you kind of let us sit like, Yeah, it has to be important. Me toe spend time automating it or whatever. Yeah, again, it's it's it's I don't know. I don't think my way of seeing things, necessarily.

Ah, like, right. Or even going to really fix that problem. But, um, you know, it's like, if you if you see food is an optimization problem, you'll end up drinking Soylent everyday. Where is there's something really valuable about? That wasn't a personal attack, but, hey, I don't drink soil. And every day did we both. We both went through. We both went through phases. Yeah, but, you know, but like, cooking food is like a really valuable things to me now and why it stuck with soil, and I wouldn't have ever gotten to that point, and you know, it's so it's like if you automate something, it's like you're automating something for who you are today and you don't really.

There's a danger in in that you cut off, You could off like potential future things. Do our feature directions to go with yourself? No, I don't know. I It's also just a by product of being pretty relatively focused on, like, other stuff, like and just not having the time to write anything I like. I like that you gave the soil and example. That's a perfect example. Um, so. Next question is so since all of our work as a developer can essentially be done on a computer and the ability to communicate with team members through APS like Slack or this Court or something like this, more and more is, Ah, those APS are just getting better every day when I think about a program or getting a job, I can't help but think that they're essentially competing with every program or trying to get job in a moment across the entire world.

Do you have any comment or concerned on that? Ah. Nothing. Super definite. I think this is a pretty naughty problem, like a pretty difficult one. There's a lot of angles to it. Obviously, we're speaking from like a very specific perspective, being programmers who are employed in America and Middle America, right? Pretty, pretty comfy jobs. That being said, I I think. I'm trying to see. I'm gonna say this. I guess the reason that I'm not super concerned about, like, you know, I've read like doomsday articles that are like the amount of program is going to go ten x and then we're going to earn ten exes.

Last money is that you really don't need a lot of programmers to do to write complicated systems. Like, if you crew our team by ten, you would not produce, like, ten times better coat, right? And I also don't think that the amount of like systems needed to run the world as it currently stands is also going to increase by ten times anytime soon and ah. So those things plus like like this, it seems like overtime.

It's really tough to get rid of complexity. And so, like like Carfax, like stuff we right, we'll probably be here for a while, then you'll just have people growing building stuff on top of it. And I think a lot of the work in the future will just be like analysis and, like, you know, working with these old legacy systems as muchas is writing new stuff, which you could kind of say, That's what our job is now, But that also does not.

Require, like a huge amount of more programmers, and I also think a lot of being a good, effective programmer is less so about skill of programming, which ah, like, I really I really think like you could teach me. Most people are careful program. I mean, a lot of what who becomes a programmer comes on like discipline and focus on to spending the time with just spending a lot of time doing it. And like a lot of Let's see, trying to think of like a like a lot of the reason that, like speaking for myself a lot of the reason that I was able to spend like it, just that amount of raw time, it's because I live like my grew up in like a middle class house, right?

And like I had a decent education and had, like, living conditions where I basically didn't have to worry about a lot of things, right, Like I didn't have to worry about where my next meal's gonna be. I'm not I didn't have to worry about like Ah, is this is my house going to get destroyed by something like that just wasn't an issue. And so I was able to spend just a stupid amount of time, you know, just trying to make video games, which those air, the skills that became the programming skills, and I I think that is like a pretty like I don't say conditions changing where there's gonna be ten times as many people able to do that in the near term.

Okay, I see. So rounding it out. Basically like the sort of skill the skills that you've learned. Um, in this situation are the time it took you to learn their skills in the right situation for cultivating this, this plan or whatever of knowledge like that Can't just go ten times up instantly or something like that. Yeah. Ah, yeah, like I don't I think. Yeah. I just don't see any any situation that's going to change and, like an order of magnitude, any of the factors that led to me.

But a programmer isn't going to change my order back to me, okay? I see what you're saying. That's the best I think I could do. Right. Oh, that's that's well, so that's well said, I think. A lot of being a programmer is also like communication skill. I think even I think the thing the way programming maiko. If this does become a thing we to somehow get like even like five times as many people entering here sciences we do now which again, like programming, it takes a lot of time to get good at it takes a lot of time and effort and energy that.

Like you don't really talk about when you let go, you know, like sign up for colleges with a computer science major. Fine like the way I see it, if that those happened else I see it may be going the way of like the film industry were, like a lot of programming is about like competency and being able to consistently do something and like being good at it. But you still again like theirs, even though there's a lot of people that want to be in the film industry, There's only so many films that, like, are being produced every year.

That number hasn't gone up by ten or whatever. Andi again, I don't think that amount of code will go, right, so okay. So you spent a lot of time developing for augmented reality in virtual reality. And I'm assuming you've also spent a fair amount of time in those worlds. Casually, can you recall a special or otherwise significant moment in your life that happened in a virtual world? That you're okay. We're sharing.

Yeah, So wear a lot of little moments where? Like, like the first time, I put on a rift like the deaf git rift and realized, like this thing that I have been reading about for like, a decade, Like I was actually like, doing that was a special moment. The first time I got like something to run or like the first version of Symphonic CE that I could play around with those those a role like special moments that come to mind the first time.

Like so John, who's a friend of mine in a roommate for context, John and I had set up our like PR set ups in the same room. In our old place and wait do now what There kind of put away. But we had set him up. And then we played like, the same things game together. Where is like this multi player like room things and like having two people both virtually next to each other and in real life, next to each other.

And like like I bumped into him in real life and my character bumped into him in PR. That was a really weird, jarring malware. It felt like everything, like, clicks out. You know, it's like suddenly that a lot of what's missing current PR, which is like the, you know, like being able to actually have, like, feedback. We hit something, all right. You had it in that moment because of the weird situation. I mean, PR is typically not done in, like, the same room with two people.

Um, I mean, most people in the e. R. R. Connected to the Internet. Right? Right. Well, I was wondering, Like what? About a moment where it's like, Oh, my God. Um, I was fourteen, and I found Jesus in v R chat, you know, or something. Some weird things like that cool thing like that. Who's the host of? Uh, what's it called? Really for chive? No, not Alex Trebek. Niger care. You know what you carry hollow. So one of the weirdest things I've done, NPR is there's this thing called old Space, which is like a vault space.

OK, on it was like one of the early, like the our social network type things similar. Like the our chat, it was trying to be a lot more like corporate and cool or like corporate and hip. Whatever the BR chat was PR chap's just like anything goes, right, right. But all space was like, We're going to sell this and, you know, it's really conferencing and stuff. And they had this serious where they would, like, bring in celebrities into PR and you could, like, talk to them.

I guess they're expecting, like, a lot of people to show up. But one of them was to carry and clean. They were, like five people in the serum. I think it was like, after, like, the event was scheduled to take place and I just talked to Drew carry for, like a while. You talk to V jerk Ari envy our chat? Yeah, me. Allow three or four other people's. And how old were you like? Fifteen. Sixteen. Dude, I've never heard this sort of.

That's a great story. It's Yeah, it's really weird. It was cool, like I asked him about, like, stand up comedy hosting a game show, you know, I mean, I've never seen I can't even remember what show he does, but just about the experience of doing it, like that kind of thing. Yeah, he was. He was. He took over Bob Barker's job that, Ah, that was the show's name. The price is right. Yeah, but that's funny. I wonder if there any interviews of him.

We're saying something like, God, one time this company made me do this thing, and now all I had good to talk with this, like, for fifteen year olds or something. If you reference is, it would be crazy. Do. But what an experienced man. It's that's out there that Yeah, that is the weirdest. Think proud. Probably thing I've done in NPR just buy this year like improbability of it. Right? We're all right. Yeah.

So when you code talking more about music here for these next few questions? Oh, by the way, we're about at an hour is okay if you keep going, okay, because I got I mean, I don't have that many more questions, but I have questions. I will go over part what we originally determined. Soldier, If you ever get tired, just let me know if you have a couple things that I want to like. Return Teo, talk more about it.

We'll see if we return to him just naturally here and by naturally, I mean, by asking these questions. It's so interesting, because sometimes sometimes things just lead into the next question. Naturally, I I set the order up so that I hope that it does that sometimes like you get your veer off immediately and it's like, Oh, God now, among question like twenty seven and don't go twenty eight or do we go back to number four?

Is just like what you do. But anyways, talk more about music here. Do you like to listen to music while you code? Do you find it distracting, or do you like to be distracted? What's your thoughts on coding and listening to music I know growing up, I listen to music while was playing video games a lot on DH. That's like where I I just spent, like, probably thousands hours listening to music because of that.

Ah, and then when I started programming again, it's like he was tied to video game, so I just continue listening stuff, huh? The music. I listen to you now when I program. It's usually either stuff that I've listened to a thousand times already, because then it's just like it's not interesting to me and I don't have to focus on it. But it's just like a It's like a good luck charm. Almost. It's like no something that reminds me your you know which some of them are like the same albums to when I was like, you know, thirteen or fourteen.

A lot of let's see. Yeah, Either that or like instrumental stuff. So you recognize that music can be can can add to your experience, but it can also like the distracting. So it's important for you to find stuff that's either minimalist in terms of like instrumental music. It doesn't have any distracting vocals that you're like. What's he talking about? What's he saying? And or something you've listened to a thousand times like it's important for you when you're coding to have music that doesn't like, totally detract from your coding experience.

Yeah, no, it's a lot of like listening a lot like house or techno or, like, you know, like artists come to mind is like a quartet or like Daniel Avery or, like boards Canada, that kind of thing. Ah, but then, like, okay, One album I've listened to enormous mound is called Since I Left You by the Avalanches, which is like probably the most like, dense, weird sounding album you'll ever hear because it's made entirely of like samples that they like.

I think he used to have the Guinness World record for like the most samples in a single album. It's like several thousand go home, and it's It's just a very, very dense album. Of just stuff, but it's it's very like, energetic. And I know the album my heart, like I've listened to it probably thousands of times. Now, like I know every single, little like thing or whatever, and so when I listen to it, it's just again.

It's like it's like, you know, being in like, the same house or like, you know, it's just comforting in a way that lets me not, you know, I feel comforted and focus on the coat or rate. Radiohead. Ah, in rain, Bo's Listen to like, way more than anyone should listen to that album. Probably you are, you know, a lot of radio. So I know that makes me feel better about listening to so much Day Matthews or whatever it's like.

Okay, well, it is. It is good to have things that you can listen to and be in the zone, that that's put you in the zone or in a comfortable place so you could be productive. That's important. Yeah, no. I can see how Dave Matthews would work, too, because it's like it's the same thing where it's like It's very tense music, but it's like, I'm sure once you listen to it a lot of time, Yeah, you know, you just internalize it.

And I think that kind of thing. It does have to be like conflict like dance music. Maybe complicated. So wrong word. Maybe maybe it is dense is a good word. Yeah. Intricate, Maybe is another and one. Yeah. Has to be intricate for you to be able to, like, internalize it like that. Yeah. You know, although I've always had an impossible time. Well, it sort of makes results, I should say, like listening to something like Philip Glass.

And I love the class, but like, I've tried to listen toyou and sign on the beach. And just sometimes it just it's something where it's like dancing complicated at the same time. It's minimalist, so it's extremely like, uh Hey captures your attention. Well, it's so incessant and said, Incessant, incessant like it's so in essence. And it's like the thousand time in the last two minutes ever dd dd You know, it's just like, No, it's nice because it could be background at the same time.

It's like, all right, I'm it's too distracting somehow, and it's repetitive. Nous your brain does focus on things that air repetitive, like that repetitive nous becomes like a signal you pick up on, you know, this serious? These are like amounts of things pretty easily, which is why I like repetition, were like repetition. But also like, you got a change Things in music, right in order to not like There's a certain, like sweet spot, it seems like of like, interesting this that like the music I like kind of falls in on.

I'm willing to bet it's it's the same, for it Seems like a lot of this is just like my like conjecture about it. But it seems like a lot of the music writing process is like just or a lot of like composition is like arrangement, especially is like figuring out exactly the amount of stuff to put in a song where it's like it's complicated enough to grab your attention, but not so complicated. It's overwhelming, like there's a sweet spot of, like attention.

You have to pay to music for it to really work. Please, for like, pop music for a problem. You know, I like how the most important thing, he said there was the end because pop music informed a certain audience and and people are generally the same. I think you're right, but the same time, like there are groups, esoteric groups of, you know, people who like people who listen to find our music like their ears are.

I've been trained drastically different from most people in that their level of like tolerance for for the amount of quantity, sheer quantity of new ideas in a three minute piece of music is totally different from what your normal listener is. And ah, but taking all those people, all those little small camps aside or out of the equation. Yeah, you're right. It's like it's always been remarkable to me how people are like they need new stuff.

They need to hear new stuff on the radio, like if you if you played something that was just basically on eighty song In today's world that had like, no alteration, It just it looked like an eighties song. It sound like it's like a duck typing sort of. If it looks like an eighties song and smells like in the song, it's an eighties song. But like people would be like, this isn't right. But if you put an interesting spin on it, people are like, this is interesting and they demand that originality get people how much better listeners than we give him credit for, uh, and you're right.

There is a certain number of like ideas that they want to hear in a song that are new and interesting, but not too overwhelming. It's like that balance does exist and your intuition it's like my intuition is probably most people's intuition, like we have that internal barometer that's, you know, consistent. I think like a lot of the stuff I've like learning to read about music like it's more about like, I don't feel like I've gotten better at like maybe maybe this will just come with time, Adam.

But a lot of what I have learned, it's less about like new ways to think about it or like new ways to like process music and more so about just putting like terms and phrases on tow things already Khun, Like see or hear music like there's not a not a huge amount about music that's like. Like, arcane or like this mysterious, mysterious thing you're like. I mean, obviously, there are tricks like that and music, but yeah, I think people most people are better listeners then.

We tend to give credible most people. I think everyone's an expert and knowing what they like. You listen, Teo, and even if they don't know how to produce it or whatever, that's irrelevant. They know what they like to listen to. A perfect example. This is like like when I make a song or like I make something that I think he's okay, I'll show it to my friend who doesn't have any sort of, like musical vocabulary on on Lee.

Um, like he's never He's never done any sort of, like musical training or anything as Faras. I know, and I just played for him. I do this for a couple couple people. Yeah, and he'll just be like, Does this sound like a song or not? And if it sounds like a song that it works. But that's like an intuition that people like I could do that for a number of people, and they'll be able to tell me that we people have a really good intuition for like, does this sound like write to you or whatever on DH?

That's like, to me, that's like the thing where that's like the goal or like the thing I'm really working toward its just like I want my phones to sound like, like songs like they should be boring in that Nothing should sound like offer weird or whatever, right? But you mentioned that several times, like going to friends that have almost no vocabulary, and they just have one word doesn't work on that sort of thing.

But I'm curious as to what sort of vocabulary you have or what sort of training you have like. And I know that, you know, you have experienced, like working with dogs and stuff, making music, not just like taking samples or other people's music, manipulating and putting effects on them or R producing them in different ways, more or less but actually coming up with melodies, that something you said that you've experiment with, like, what's your musical background?

I guess, is what I'm trying to say. So, um, I didn't like middle school bands. I played trumpet, so I learned how to, like, read music and okay, scales and all that stuff. Mom, I was never very good at it. I never really put in the time to be like, you know, serious about it. Ah, because I think a large part of it is that I didn't like the sound of the trumpet. I think I My mom picked it just cause it was, like the cheapest instrument that you could buy, which is classic mom thing to do.

Bye. Yeah, I was I was just never really that into it. And thin later on, I did like percussion for a while, which is like a combination of, like, drumming. But then, if you if there's a song that has, like a cowboy island or sleigh bells or like, I don't know, like a marimba or whatever, like you're learning to play that instrument and like, all basically just etcetera random stuff and I did that for a little while, Well, that was kind of neat because I just got exposed to a lot of different stuff.

Yeah, but then I you know, after that, which was like middle school and like, right before high school, I did nothing. Music hole. And I didn't really do anything musical before. That trumpet was in, like, yeah, like primary school or elementary school, too. I can't remember how much how long that will's thing is from so you do have some musical technical, uh, background, You know, to kind of, like, make sense out of the music that you hear in the music that you want to make.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, a little bit, But do you even use those, Actually, those tools like the being able to read music. You might not even use that ability in a dollar. You made me, like. Okay, well, this is G, ABC, whatever. But no. Oh, and that have sharp. That's someone that sounds weird. I'm gonna avoid that note or whatever. Yeah, you're was the label things. But, you know, I think it just gave me just enough confidence, Tio, when I, like, actually picked up a bilton for the first time and messed around with it.

I wasn't, like, totally, like, freaked out by it. And I knew, like, Okay, this is what a time this signature is this what a BPM is that kind of thing? But yeah, I mean, and what I do nowadays, I don't see any of any of that in it, so yeah, I don't I don't really I'm trying to learn the piano. And I think that's that will give me, like, I'm doing that explicitly to get that sense that, like, internalized sense of, like, melody and having something having something that I could develop melodies on where I don't just have to like, damn, you know, like drat, like, draw them in on a midi.

What is a piano roll, right? You know? Yeah. So home of open. That will give me that. But yeah, I don't I don't think well, it's interesting. I mean, it's you know, there's this one guy in Germany that way met over Soundcloud, and I actually met him in your life. He's like, the only person I've ever met on the Internet in the medical life might, uh, it was just interesting. And I was just going over there anyway.

So I was like, you, you know, let's meet up. And we worked on some musical things. And when I I always like, love this music. It's crazy, different and out there and It's just like so original in my opinion, and when I got there and like watched him make music, he was literally just with a mouse, clicking and dragging in notes. I'm like your insane new like like that. Not only is that so time consuming, but it was just like it almost looked like he didn't even know what he is doing, and it just he was just like making all this amazing stuff.

He did know what he's doing, but that's just like the tools that he had to work with here to work for the mouse. And he he wanted to learn how to read music and learn the piano. And, yeah, he doesn't do too much music stuff these days. But as as it were. But so I see that similarity, and you like at the end of day, you want a tool to help you be more efficient and making music. Bye. The thing that discovered about that, though, is that the better you get at some input device, the pianos, The best input device, probably for music, is that you suddenly you have to be very aware that your fingers, however little or much training that you have.

They want to do certain things. And that may not necessarily be what's in your head. Yeah, and so it's really easy just to kind of like your fingers were on the keyboard to make something. And then you listen and like, that's not at all what I was thinking. And unless you studied the piano your entire life in working on that bridge between your mind and your fingers, it's It's like, it's like I'd rather almost just, like, entered and with a mouth sometimes, because at least I know that's what I intended to do, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I have Yeah, I feel like I like the way I've always approached like, music stuff from, like, a production standpoint. That was the thing that was really interesting to me about it. Not necessarily, like, you know, composing melodies or whatever. And by production, you mean, like, big picture? Yeah. Like I was always interested in. Like, like I would. He were attracted me, like, how do they make like these sounds?

Or how do you make something sound like it has? Like a lot of echo are, you know, like a reverb or DeLay or whatever. Like, I mean, I didn't know what those things were, but I was like, what? How do you make this happen? Like what? What is the process behind? Making some track That, like It was really impressive to me or meaningful to me. Like, how do you take that apart? How What? What is that? That was the part that I really learned first and then, like a lot of my stuff, a sample base.

And so I really only got into, like, the military side of that because, like, I need Teo or I want I want that tool. To be able to, like, basically, come up with humility is not have to find a sample to do what I want to do. Jean. Bye. Yeah, I mean, that's always you know, I think I think I'd be happy working with, like, other other people to do like that. Like, I would really love to produce, like someone else's album or whatever, right?

Yeah. And yeah, that's that. That stuff is what I get a kick out of it to me. So for me, like using samples of, like, other music or whatever it's like, like I need a melody that sounds like a certain thing conveys an emotion. And so, like someone he knows piano, Khun just They have that internalized ability to just make make something that sounds happy. You know, just let their fingers make some of sounds happy on my way.

Doing that is going out and finding a sample of a song that sounds happy, right? You know, but it sze still a similar thing. It's still like I want. I want a piece of music or a certain amount, a certain like slice, a composition that will make someone feel a certain thing. You know, it's just that my way of doing that is you know, taking taking stuff from existing source here, here's a Here's a question you don't know the answer to you Mentioned, like starting as a writer, but eventually be more like technical wondering coding stuff, basically.

I mean, if I could summarize, uh what you focus on your time on and it grant, you mix things. He makes the coating of storytelling with some of the absolute you've made. But there's music feel like more mathematical, logical, and you put this here. But is there in that hell, has to fit in. It all has to sonically sound good. The frequencies have to overlap in ways that are pleasing to my ear drums. Or is it more like story telling to you?

Yeah, that's a good one. Ah, probably both. To some extent. I really like the feeling I love the process of just like like producing something and like having having, like a tiny, like current, a little bit idea and then building that out and, like, you know, letting that kind of develop over time, which that is similar to like, when I write, it's like I start with, like an outline, our structure or something or some like concept.

I go for a little bit, but then they liked. The end result is very different from when I started out with the same thing with music. Ah, but then, you know, there's also there's a lot of satisfaction in, like knowing, like getting something, the sound, the way you want it to. You're like thinking like I want to do the specific effects or make it fuel, feel a certain way, like bigger, angry or whatever.

Ah, and like the palette of of emotions I worked with, it's probably not too different from the power emotions. And who else? Those so, like getting it Tio hit that hit that market just satisfying. So I think it's a bit of both But the thing that drew me to it of it in the beginning was definitely that. Just hearing people talk about like the process of making music and thinking like this is something that I I could see myself doing and enjoy and so far cool.

You keep mentioning kind of how. You know, the things that I think about our aren't that different People are the the sounds or the emotions I feel or something aren't that different from other people. But I know also that the stuff you work on is usually pretty unique. Uh, has some uniqueness about it. Or some people might say in the coding business, some technical inside or some nugget of originality.

How important is is being original in the things that you produce. I'm I think it comes back to the the, uh, like a live nous. Which I think a large part of that feeling is originality. Definitely, um, feeling like there's something something that means that this thing like demands to be made like it has to be made on DH. Obviously, if something already exists and like, there's no need for me to go and spend our time in it like there's a lot of things that, like, I want to make our are interesting to me.

But then the the things that it's the things that, like, you know, stay over a long period of time that I actually you spend time on um and so yeah, I'd say I don't know exactly how much how important it is to me, but definitely pretty important. Because I know it just it all seems fairly nebulous and party like this process that I don't have, like, an enormous amount of control over on DH is really just about being very, like, discerning about what, uh, just being just being like a pretty heavy editor of my own, like ideas of my own life.

Just getting rid of everything that isn't Doesn't have that. That feeling to it that again. It's just hard to quantify, but no. Just Yeah, I don't know. Like I was a little bit confused on what you're saying. Like you saying that you like, Tio, you start with an idea or whatever. You let sit Mullan around your mind, either musical idea, our ah coding idea or whatever, and you kind of keep distilling it down to its essence, and that's unique in the result just happens to be unique and original, and that's what you want, or you reduce you strip away all the other things that are cliche for lack of better words is where that's part of your process or yeah, I think I get rid of is that aren't unique.

And I get thing rid of things that aren't don't have some sort of interesting, like edge to them. Ah, I definitely see myself like, actively doing more of that than I do. Like trying to think like what? Quick, like a knight on a I need unique ideas or like novel things. Now, like it's it's more that, like, I just I tried a You know, I try to, like, get get stuff from, like, a wide variety of sources. Like read a read a lot of different weird stuff.

Stuff does not obviously connected to, like anything I do. Ah, where, you know, just be very kind of open minded and then sew, for example, like symphonic switches. This v r game. Would you call the game our world? Our I got in an argument with someone. Read it over this wall. Boy, I think I need to call it a toy. Toy? Yeah, it's a toy. Okay, well, this v R toy where you could basically make music and V are bi putting paddles in certain locations and making balls and the balls bounce on paddles and they make noises and justice all very different way of making music.

Like, Did that start out, for example, as a as a larger idea and something that you like to still down to what it is today? Yeah, so that started out as that's one of those ideas. Like I had the same phonics idea for like, years before I actually did it. And a ce faras like, remember it started out is like a like music video concept or like a sketch I did for something. A little music video concept. Yeah.

Okay. I remember wanting to do music like so for a while, and, like high school, I was really gonna kill on being a film director. Ahn I thought like I would make like music videos to get into that. But this is while you were coding, you know, writing video games or making maps. Yeah. Like I said, I gotta get a lot of free time. But so I remember having an idea similar to this when I was like being film production stuff and it just kind of stuck around.

And when I was doing, like, kind of, ah, I remember being thinking a lot about, like, music production. We are like, what that would look like. OK, I was I was asking myself what we're talking about. Like, how does this relate to some phonics at all? Well, like the music, the music video would be like like a kind of like a Rube Goldberg machine type thing that produces music by having like the balls, you know, bouncing what music video I see.

So it's not like a music video. In this sense, I go Here's a band playing in there seeing their song on a desert island. But watch like you meant music video is in here's this experience that's visual and sonic. Yeah, that Yeah, it's like those those people. What's that guy's name? Who he does this like this go number whatever with just like, nothing but balls, marbles dropping and this insanely complicated, you know?

Yeah. Fair spillers. Not fair. Steelers a day off. What's the eighties? The guy with the weird bike. Come on. What's his name was that YouTube video? Yeah, it's going back to the video. It's Ah, yeah, he's like, dancing around. He's like a deejay, but it's like this crazy, like, Nazi code breaking machine, you know? Oh, it was like it was like a wouldn't think Yeah, yeah. Winter Gaetano. Yes, that's it. It's something like that.

You like where? It's just like, experience of, like, music, but it's created with this, like, chaos of of of physics. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's a very similar cons. Very like like this Constance been done before. And music videos. There is an all Tetra music video that I saw that. I think, I mean, this is, like, five or six years ago, but I think that was the fun anyways. Ah, so you know, there's just an idea that bounced around in my head and a CZ I was thinking about, like, different ways of doing like music, music, mutualization, NPR.

I'm like, what would able to look like NPR? It's just one of the concepts I kind of came up with. Which, yeah, like my process is very slow like that. Like I was saying about this for like, maybe you're so just thinking a different concepts and that was the one that, like, worked there, survived. And then I, you know, start made a prototype and to you from there and start selling on seem I really like that story.

And actually, I just kind of randomly brought up that app because I was trying to understand it and some specific context. And so I thought I'd bring up a specific thing you've done. And it actually fit perfectly because, like you started is as this idea what you said that are being done basically. But you distill down, too. It's most original form, which is this the our toy game? Ah, that you actually made in published.

So that's a success, man. That's cool. So speaking of, I just want to ask you these questions, but I'm kind of like on the last set, so we'll probably spending a little less time on some of these. But ah, which has more potential v r virtual reality or augmented reality. So And Ana, I'd like for you to answer, unlike conceptually and economically, maybe they're both the same answer. I don't know. Okay, good.

I like this question a lot. No, let's see. So the I think the answer's V are long term like long, long term, like, you know, like hundreds of thousands of years. I think it has really like the thing that's interesting about you are like a fundamental level, like the thing that I think will I mean, that it's not going to go away, whereas I think, like the current generation of they are like, might fizzle out.

Is this just not there yet? But like we are like, there is a potential to basically mess with a lot of, like fundamental costs of things and make them a lot cheaper. Which, like any big technology, has that potential, like the Internet, really reduce the cost of sending, sending data basically right and so that that change a huge amount of stuff about like society? No, you know, like where you basically take something that it is, you know, like in the eighteen hundreds, like sending data had like a pretty serious cost to it, and it was like a complicated costs for like different types of data, the amount of data Ah had different costs to it and so forth.

And with the Internet, those those costs, a lot of them are the same. Costs now, like it's been normalized, and it's also been reduced by an enormous mouth, like several factors. Ah, and so like whenever some, some, some cost some fundamental cost changes. That's that cause a lot of really weird stuff to happen in the world, and we are icy. Has the potential to basically is right? Is the potential. It's not like we're not there yet, obviously, but in V R.

B are Yeah, we are has the potential to reduce the cost of basically like human experience to like almost nothing like a most human experiences as well as like social presence, like being next to someone else, which right now, like there's a pretty significant cost of that, like you have to live near someone to see them in person and like there's a huge gap between seeing someone in person. It's saying someone Internet, right?

Like there's That's a huge, significant jump. It's a completely different thing, and there's all sorts of stuff tied to seeing someone in person. Ah, and so once you make that experience as cheap as sending a text message or whatever, like any anything we have now or face timing, I think that like a lot of the fundamentals, costs in society orbit were there. A lot of the infrastructure in society we have right now is based around those fundamental costs being where they are and hot.

Almost nothing, right, like the cost of costs of a plane ticket, right is based on people wanting to fly a whole lot, right? And so, like, what you're saying is basically fundamentally, since augmented reality, by definition is tied to this physical reality and without getting into like crazy discussions about what is reality and stuff. This physical reality, it's it's always attached to that cost of doing things in real life, like you have to go there to see Well, sort of.

I mean, you could be in, like, a gymnasium, but you still to be in a physical place in V R. He could be in your home. You I'm doing everything. So it's always added advantage economically toe like have experiences. And we are now like air conduce. Um, weird stuff, too, because now, like, there's a lot of like, physical objects that now you could make basically free. But, like, I think the level fidelity for a R is needs to be way higher than it is right now.

For that to really matter where is, like with beer? I don't think we're that far away from getting to the point where, like you can have that physical presence. You have a light, then, well, they are really even have a space because, honestly, like v R. Like, for example, at that event that we had at Carfax, I've played on John's the R system for, like three minutes you know, I was inside a game and and, like, shooting zombies or some like that, but like, there's no way I could have a similar, like, awesome experience doing that in a R.

And if we are, is the real winner in the long run, too, like, well, A are truly even have, like, a place, uh of popularity. And you ubiquity or will the are just basically win in the short term. And the long term, I think, well, so I think it will be technically possible to do the stuff I'm talking about, like being able to give you the impression that someone is like sitting across the table from you a virtual space and like, really have that, like all the little things like blinking and moving your eyebrows and all the stuff that's like And for the listeners at home, I'm blinking and move my rounds right now now, but all that stuff, yeah, like we'll be able to do it.

But it's going to take probably a lot longer for those like societal changes to happen with that, because you've got to get everyone like thes e r goggles and make everyone, like right, basically sign up to live their lives and like a good amount of it in a virtual world and like all these workplaces, have to change like it's a pretty big shift. Where's air like if you have a good use case for it, like people are going to adopt because it's not nearly the level of costs to, like, change stuff over.

So I think both will be around. Ah, it's just making making them feasible for like the average person, which, you know, like we might have that really nice v R system with a caustic ten thousand dollars. And, yeah, that's a real possibility. But like air like you can do on your phone, Bye. I think you do need you needed. You do need goggles to do it like you need something that's on your your eyes, right?

You need interaction system that's basically seamless and like there's a lot of other things that have to be better, a swell with just the experience and with the way its use. I can think of a lot of really interesting uses for of your and I can't really think of many for a R right now. Like what we've got the one. The one thing I've seen work really well is for marketing and for from market marketing, marketing.

Marketing and like sails and like, shopping and that kind of thing. It seems like there's a use case for So you mean someone goes them all with some classes on and they can see like, all the detail of of advertisements that aren't even actually there. Yeah, they're just being displayed, right? Like, right. I mean, they would have to be some other good reason why someone would put on a glass a pair of glasses where they're just being, like, fed.

All this marketing. Yeah. I mean, yes. Yeah, that are like like the Ike thing where you can, like, put a couch like a virtual couch in your living room, see how it would look. Oh, now that's cool. Yeah, like that. That stuff is neat. And there is value to that key is doing that. Dude. Way to go, Mikey. I'm pissed because I like When Air Kit first came out, I made, like, an app where I found, like, someone. It may look a dump of three D models every I ke a furniture, and I was like, Can I beat them to market with the first ever Kia our butt?

Then I looked up copyright law, and I was like, maybe maybe I should not do this. And then they came out with their version, like a month later. Yeah, Great. Great job. No, that's cool. I mean, it's just called a little in age where all this is possible. Um, so a few more questions here. What questions remain unresolved for you. It's a good one. I mean, I I know. I think I have a good idea what I like doing and when interested in doing.

Ah, but it remains to be seen. Like how How that will actually work out, like long term. Ah, you know, like what? What I'll end up doing, or you know, whatever. You know, or like even where, where I'll be. All right. You know, just a lot of that kind of stuff. Like the stuff I know in my life is like I like doing these things. I like making stuff on whatever. I just have no idea how I'm gonna like, actually, you know, like what form that will be in, like, a decade or so.

I know we'll be doing it to some capacity, but like where and how or why. Well, the why I think I kind of know. But, you know, success is never like a guarantee thing. So I'm trying to make sure there's always, you know, some sort of plan, some sort of stability. He also do stuff. How do you deal with failure? Ah, failing a lot, I think. Doesn't It doesn't like feelings. Still is hard and not fun. But you do it enough and you just It doesn't like shake your confidence as much a zit did previously And I think, yeah, like I'm gonna point now.

We're like, I've done enough stuff that's failed that I feel like like each successive failure, like it'll hurt, but it won't. It won't like like I'll continue to do stuff like that. I remember early on, like, you know, like thinking, like, if I don't get this game doesn't work out like I'll never like I don't know if I can even make video games. You know, if I can even make music, Whatever. Yeah. Hands.

You know, I just like I produce enough good stuff. And I've also I just done enough bad stuff for, like, okay, stuff that I'm not worried, scared about it as much or I'm not. I don't think I'm worried or scared and all that. I can't make a view game or that I can't make a song and I can't do all these things. It's more the worry now is more like How good can I do it? Like, what's the best thing for me to make or like how, like, basically, am I spending my time in the right way and, you know, making the right thing?

So they're like, the only thing that you feel that was lost is like the time that you spent on it. It's not not as much of an emotional baggage of like, every single thing has this toll on your soul. Yeah, yeah, like you have to get comfortable with just wasting a lot of time and like, spending an enormous amount of time like so much time that, like, you're not going to get back certain things in order to be ableto, you know, spend the amount of time it takes to do things right, Make something that's good, I think That's my theory.

Why is it so difficult for humans to consider the possibility that life may be pointless? You know? I mean, Aiken, like I can say, life is pointless. Serve it. Ever be like, tell myself that, but ah, there's. I think there's a difference between like, life having some sort of meeting and like like the will to live right there like the thing that gets you up in the morning. Ah, and I think the two things become like very fuzzing in people's brains, and it's hard to really like, well, one of those out, unless you, like, really committed to nihilism or whatever.

So it's very impossible to like, live or like Live a life without really thinking that life has a point, man. Bye. You know, I don't know. I don't I guess I don't think it's super black and white. I guess I don't think most people have super strong, definite ideas were like, you know, opinions on the matter because he did. Then, you know, I think you'd see people doing a lot more extreme stuff. Kind of a non answer that's cool.

And finally, if your ruler of the world, what would you do on your first day? I really don't. I really don't like semi colons programming languages. I think like we got compilers second, get rid of them. So, um, I think they're dumb. I think it's just a hold over. Yeah. So I would give her a semi colon. The eradication of semicolons and programming languages. You would make a vaccine for semi colons on your first day?

Yeah. Anyone caught with cynical and is gonna have to write. Write an essay. About how bad? There. That's my Let's move. It's good. Well, Brian, thanks for joining me. Next time we do this, we'll have to do it. And the our chat with Drew Carey also there something crazy. So, uh, anyways, thanks for the interview, man. Sure think Thanks for having me