PAPIO

Okay, Jesse. Passively. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, that is you're my co worker, Carfax. You're a treat to work with because you're diligent, but also fun. And a conversation with you always leads to an interesting place. Like when you talk about ancient human history or when we bump into each other at Carfax on Saturday, working on personal projects and start talking about how ah, neural network learns with back propagation.

You are also one of the first people that I remember because you were on the phone interview panel when I interviewed for a Job at Carfax almost 2 years ago. And I'm finally excited to turn the table by asking you the questions so we'll start off with getting some context. Yes. What was your earliest memory? Oh, man, that's a good question. So I think I think my first memory is walking like being able to walk and big enough to push open the door.

The front door to my parents. I think the time they lived in a duplex of some sort and pushing the door open and then leaving the house, and I remember it felt like walking for a very long time. Of course, my mom told me much later on, like when I was in my teens that I had just walked out into the front yard. But I guess to like a little toddler that's like it's a huge area and my parents being really worried when they picked me up from the yard that I just kind of, like, escape the house.

And I I don't know how old I was gonna guess, like to our eyes very, very young, very young. And I think that's my first memory. Well, good one. And you grew up in psych stone, right? Uh, kind of. Yeah. So I moved there, I think, when I was, like, maybe eleven or twelve, I think twelve. So I went to junior high and high school there. Before that, I lived in Crate, Colorado. And we moved to Craig from Gosh, it must have been either Denver or Fort Collins.

You know, wherever I had my first memory, I think I think that's where we live directly before we moved to Creek, Colorado. No, and Craig is in northwest Colorado. It's a very sort of desolate. I don't want a desolate it's there's nobody there. It's it's empty and it's just pulled of wilderness and open hills and mountains and lakes and stuff. And it's really cool on. But, yeah, I move, we move decisive.

And when I was, I think twelve. So I spent, I guess, six years there. Six or seven. Something that in sexton insects Will you graduate and you want to Kirksville. After that, I went to another small town. I know, you know, in psych standing, Hershel, I've never been the Sykes. And but after hearing about it from another friend and live there, it seems like they're on opposite sides of the state. Basically, write more lesser.

One south one's north. Yeah, maybe one's a little East. What loans? A little west? Yeah. Um, so, yes, Iceman is in southeast Missouri. It's just south of Cape Girardeau. And yes, if you drive twenty or thirty, twenty minutes. You get to the Mississippi River. Andan Kirksville? Yeah, that's that's up in the north. Like closer, closer to Iowa? I guess so. Um, well, what kind of a kid were you during those years? Like in Sykes?

And do you think, like, were you Ah, good student, or did you have focus on activities? Were you in like, boxing or now? Like, uh, because you mentioned, I guess, like because I was a teenager than most most teenagers or shit heads, so a fair amount of shit headedness and kind of lack of direction. Yeah, I was I was a good student. Like I would say more so later in high school. Yeah. I didn't really care for school in when I arrived in Sise tonight, Will, because they didn't care for school anytime, but no.

So I did. Ah, Taekwondo. And that was a lot of fun. That was That was something that I enjoy doing when I was a teenager, Um, I did things like, I don't know, like, physics Olympics and, uh, had my family computer and learn a lot about programming and all sorts of stuff with my family's computer. Um, yeah. So I don't know, Like my teenage years, I feel it's kind of like for me. My my head was just kind of like in the clouds, and everything was very easy and just kind of like you act dumb.

Um, I want those kids like that that, you know, I always met these people in high school or whatever they're or people in college that were like, Oh, high school is easy. I never studied, Just got a's and b's or whatever and moved on. But like, you know, personally, I worked really hard in high school because, uh, I don't know why it was just the expectation, but there's some of these people like you.

Probably. Maybe, I guess is what I'm asking is that high school was just academically a breeze. Um, yeah, like looking back, of course. And you realize that it was like a lot of it was spread out like over years. But when you look back and you look at the content and how much you actually studied is it's actually very little. I felt like high school's a lot of like showing up. I would say I would say, like, Yeah, I still studied hard, like I did homework and spent too much time like writing essays are doing doing calculus, homework or whatever.

But yeah, it's like While I was there, I felt most of it was like just showing up, like having to deal with other awful teenage shit heads like, um, that seemed to like, uh, I say, like be more important than the academics or not, not more important. But like that's that's the day to day stuff that I have the culture in the life of being in high school, in the politics or the friendships like that's all.

Yeah, the academics is like the secondary reason why, Yeah, are the secondary focus. I felt that way. Yeah. You know, you're in a taekwondo, Even them, which surprises me a little bit. Did you getting them to get into fights as a kid? Oh, yeah. Yeah, coming. Yeah, like, I guess. Yeah, school's a good environment for that. He's shovel bunch of kids together that may or may not want to be together. Um, and you give them a bunch of one interesting work to do.

It seems kind of likely that stuff like that might go on. Were you always like the instigator, or were you always defending yourself or what was the No, I say I did a fair amount of both. Like I'd like to run my mouth on and you know, I guess I would take. I would I would report. I would. So that regards. And then other times, like, yeah, like you have a bully problem. Uh, and then usually that just requires you getting more friends than he has friends.

And, um, settling that I'm so so I don't know, like, you know. I don't know. It was just like I felt, like normal teenage stuff. So sure. And you, you graduated high school and did you immediately go to college and crystal And what did you study there? So when I, ah, my first year there, or my first my first couple years like I did, I did it. A bunch of computer science courses, a bunch of art courses and allergic course.

And I decided to become an English major. Um, and that's what I did. So I got my English degree from there, but yeah, I kind of didn't have a lot of sort of direction and just kind of, like went where my interest took me, so that was both good and bad. So I'm, you know, a lot people especially, like in the programming world would pride make fun of, like, you know, having an English degree or something like that.

But, uh, actually, I'm actually really happy that I that I did that fern all sorts of different reasons, but, um ended up propelling me into the life that I have. And I'm happy with that in that regard. So what do you mean by directionless? It's just like I think You know, some people when they finish high school and they go off to college, they have, like, Oh, I'm going to go. I'm gonna do this. And these are the steps that I have to make it to their Whereas me, I was I had very vague ideas, and I didn't know exactly what I wanted.

And of course, if you don't know that, you don't know what steps to take to get to there. So But you also said that you, like your head was in the clouds. Yeah. Why did you have sort of have this grand dream that you didn't know? Like the steps to get there? Maybe. But like it's somehow started with an English degree or mice going over to different many times in your life. No, like because, like I had, I had things that I wanted to accomplish in life or things that I knew I enjoyed.

But and I say like, you know, that you know the phrase paralysis by analysis. Yeah, yeah, you have too many choices, and so you end up making no choices. Um, so it's kind of like that there was so many things that I had in my head, and I think I'm still that way. Like I have, like, really diverse interests. And so being able to, like, just focus on one thing at a time is really difficult for me. Uh, so I think that was sort of what I suffered from.

I wouldn't call it suffering. Come, that's what influence you to make the decisions that you make. So, like after graduating, you went directly over to China or Japan, right? Yeah. Yeah. So then, like a tte end at the end of my time in Kirksville, I was looking for jobs. I was looking, you know, just I didn't know precisely when I wanted to do I thought that I had wanted to go to China and teach English, But then one of my friends who was already in Japan, he called me up and he was like, Hey, Jesse, like, let me hook you up with a job, like, let me show you the ropes.

Yeah. So that was really cool. And that was that's sort of when I felt like I had some sort of, like something to do, like something to focus on and something something really interesting do with my life. So, yeah, like in the span of, like, two months. I got my passport. Oh, got money together. Tio Tio, go to Japan. And I was off. I I think before I went, I had like maybe two, two Japanese lessons. Oh, yeah, I've had a phrase book and I had all my belongings in one one big bag, one bag full of belongings, one one bag full of stuff.

Which God, which was good because the apartments, they're pretty small, so it's It's not like a lot of you don't need a lot of so when you ah! Um you seem to have a proclivity for learning languages because, as I understand, you speak not only English obviously very well, but Japanese and Chinese too. Fairly high with high degrees. What's your strategy for learning languages? Yeah, so might my strategy.

Or at least when I when I moved to Japan, um wass to go into activities as much as I could where it was Japanese only so really good starting thing is like just going to a restaurant by yourself. And maybe you You study a few phrases before you go, or you study a few things of you know, if you go to a ramen restaurant, right? So think of the toppings or think of the times of things that you'd want to order.

So look those up in the dictionary and see if you can find them on the menu. The Seaview Order. So it's kind of like put yourself in a situation where failure is a real possibility and that you can receive immediate feedback. So if they give you funny looks or they don't know what you're doing, then you know you're wrong. So you got to try something else, or the next step was to join like a like a sports, like a sports club or some sort of activity.

So I went and joined a kendo club and nobody there spoke English with me, and it was a pretty awkward uh, and I guess it was always awkward, but like the first couple of weeks were super awkward now. But then you learned just enough just to, like, keep up with the class and keep up with the teachers trying to tell you like you know what activities coming next or what you're doing wrong or things like that.

So putting yourself in a situation where, like, you get rapid feedback in the form of failure, like misunderstanding, any lessons are good lessons and studying grammar on your own. Those those air all necessary, but without being immersed and having that sort of rapid feedback loop. Come on. I think without that you can't really progress so fast. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting because as we're both coders, coding is also the sort of thing where you get that immediate feedback like compilers wrong or the test isn't passing any insight constantly in a failure state, basically, until you're finished.

And so it's It's an interesting way to go to learn things, but probably one of better ways. Is it significantly harder? So learn languages as an adult in your opinion, or is that a misconception Action if you want to learn, Yeah. So when you're when you're a young kid when you're learning languages, it's not like you're studying languages. You just time, I say. You get exposure and you learning in learned by osmosis.

I know that's not really a thing, but you just You don't see it as studying something. You just pick it up naturally as you do English when you're a kid. Uh, when you're an adult, you have to be more. Oh. Did I say construction for the part? You get to be more diligent about creating the environment, or yes. Yeah. So, um, so there's a there's a lot of different theories off of how people pick things up of or how people pick up new languages.

Um, but the thing that that I noticed both when I was teaching and then stuff that I noticed in scientific literature was that if you if you are constantly exposed to the target language. So let's say you wanted to learn German. So what you do is you would set up your German room in your house where Whatever. Wherever you studying and you take away any sort of English input, whether that's written input or you know what you watch on TV or whatever you would put on German TV or German videos and then just keep it in that and not necessarily, huh?

Learn lessons and go to a class. But having that time of exposure is actually the most important thing when learning a new language. And I noticed that, too, with my students that especially like at university levels the ones that were nearly fluent, they spent almost all their free time watching American TV series or movies like and exposing themselves the music like they said, that they would spend hours and hours just like people binge on Netflix stuff.

They would do the same with TV series and movies in the target language, and they I mean, they would still screw up on grammar and stuff just as much as any of the other of the other students, but their ability to speak it and to communicate with it was I like orders of magnitude better. So, So just getting exposed to the language, having as much input as possible. So if you always, you know, watching movies, listening to music in the target language, a lot of that kind of has to come before you start actively learning grammar and no writing and all that other stuff I've noticed.

It's a lot easier for people to go from, you know, say, hours and hours of listening to writing, versus trying to learn all the different skills at the same time. Yeah, I guess you're right. You know, when we learn languages as kids, uh, or immersed first and then, like we'll be in a high school English class at age eighteen, learning how calm is really get placed or whatever, And it's like, that's eighteen years of being surrounded by the language before even learn.

Or maybe that's supposed to be early, and I just learned it late, but, uh, but things like that whereas as an adult, when we try to learn language, it's like the wrong order. We tried toe. We try to learn the write articles before the noun or whatever. Yeah, first. And so we're even, and then maybe one day get immersed. But that's after years of studying or something. But what? What got you, Like you said, you initially want to go to China.

But why did he even have the idea? Like I have to go over Asia somewhere in teach English? Like what gave you that idea? Mostly because I was I was interested in Chinese language, and I was interested in Chinese history. And I thought that, like, if I were to have a job and also continue studying those things, that would be the best way to do it versus going over there as a student. Um, paying money I could get paid to go over there, thinks so.

That was That was sort of what was going on. And also, like just my interest in martial arts. No, in college became interested in Sanda and Chinese martial arts. Um, I should say other Chinese martial arts. So Santa is just trainees kickboxing and then I thought I would be able to continue or study it at greater depth, actually, in China. And, of course, going to Japan ended up studying a bunch of Japanese martial arts.

So And then finally, like, later on, when I, when I did move to China, studied some there too. So, um, that was sort of my, you know, my side, my side hobby or the thing that I was interested in was martial art. I'm curious. Where does, uh, that interest come from? Like, you were talking before we started the interview like about American sports and stuff. And then, like your chin, your interest is like completely sports vices focused on, like, one type of fighting another.

And ah, and I know so little about fighting. And I assume taekwondo is the Chinese. That's a Korean. That's Korean. Yeah, it's really okay. That's a Korean martial art. And it's It's mostly no yes, this might piss people off, but it mostly comes from Japanese karate. So But it's it's a Korean. It's a Korean martial art and you learn howto kick people in the head, punch things and stuff like that. It's really fun for kids.

Uh, and so that that was actually that was sort of the thing that was available to me when I was growing up in crazy Colorado on DH. There was a really good teacher there. So that's that's where I got started with that. But then? So in college. So Sanda Sanders. Cool, because you get to kick people in the head and punch things, and you get to throw people and push people off platforms. And so there's a bit more, you know, more techniques learn and that level of contact is higher and stuff like that.

You know, the one quote that comes to my mind when listening to hear you talk about fighting and stuff. Is that Mike Tyson quote where he says everyone thinks they know how to fight until they get punched in the face of something like that? Yeah, and you recently, fairly recently in the past couple years have even competed. Oh, and an event. And I mean, you're in your thirties, right? So, like And he said the prime of of even a professional fighter is in their twenties or so, like what's it like being in the position, like of a competition or whatever?

When you're actually, it's like one thing to watch it and to study it. But when you're actually trying to win, like, how's that feeling different? Gosh. Uh, yeah. So it's kind of like, I guess as you age and you have more experience, your expectations are tempered. When you're young, it's like you're full of life. Bigger and you're like, Yeah, I want to go. I'm going to go beat someone's ass, Lou, I'm gonna win.

And, you know, that may or may not happen. And of course, if that doesn't happen, you're super disappointed in all this other stuff. Um, but I think is maybe you get older. You kind of temper your expectations. Especially like, um, with what your body is capable of. And as far as like, physical strength. Like, I'm probably way stronger than I was when I was in my twenties. But as far as like, sort of like a did I say, Like bigger, like, like the ability to roll the punches and just no stamina?

No, no. So that actually the stamina and all that, that's that's fine. It's not. It's not as good. It's just sheer desire to win like, yeah, sort of the gusto like the gusto to get in there and beat someone No, like I as I get older, like I feel like I'm trying to, like, strategize more and like think about technique, which, of course, like Mike Tyson says that that doesn't really that's not really pan out so well, but you do like you'd lose that gusto.

And so. So going into the competition, What what was it like gonna have for two years ago? A sum like that? It's like, yeah, there was, like sort of like, oh, like there's there's going to be First of all, no way t get to get the bell to get to win the division and then just to even like I felt just even show up and get in the ring was a big deal. And actually it was because I'd never been to a tournament that big, but watching, watching, like fit, tough guys who are all muscles up and they're all ready to go.

And then, you know, thirty minutes before their match, they're like, Oh, I don't want to fight I'm out of here and and so on and that's not to say like they're wimps or anything. That's like something that fighters go through, like, you know, the amateur level, there's like, I don't I don't like this as totally acceptable because, like willingly, going into a ring to get you head beat in, it's probably not, like the smartest thing ever, right?

So, um, so anyways, that was that was the goal for me was to show up and get in the ring and just see what I could do. So that's what I did. And I was happy with that. I lost horribly. I got kneed in the chest. It really hurt for days and weeks afterwards. Probably. Yeah, actually, it was. It was. The thing that was weeks afterwards was my foot was broken. Somehow I landed a kick. Maybe on his Tiana is near something I kicked with my instep instead of my shin.

And that was the thing. Like I was limping around for, like, the next two months. I don't know if you remember that, but I don't remember your foot being injured necessarily. But, uh, it doesn't surprise me, I guess. Yeah, so that was that was that was actually the thing afterwards that I didn't notice until after the fight. But during the fight, getting need in the chest and kind of like crumpling on the floor of the ring, that was that was what's what lost me catch.

So and I have a hard enough time going. Just the idea of going to chiropractor toe get manipulated so I can never step into a ring to get my ass speeding. But so, you know, it's funny that you mentioned that about the Japanese marsh, our influence on taekwondo. And I've always heard that Japan has been like significant significant cultural influence or to other countries like the United States is, you know, like, people watch our movies.

And for the most part, like I go, Germany, like everyone in Germany, is aware of American culture to the degree that I am in A. It's not the other way around, you know. And but Japan's like another country that I've always heard that is a significant influence on neighboring countries. Can you, uh, Can you relate, or can you talk about that? A zit relates to other areas besides, like, boxing or whatever.

Well, yeah. So I'm so of course, there's like martial arts and stuff like that. But I think that that's that's like, so small compared to thie impact of like Japanese filmmaking, Japanese pop music. Like, uh, there's anime and comic books and stuff like that, But I would say, man, filmmaking, uh, like you, can't it be difficult to like, find a person who loves movies and has never seen like a Securicor saw movie like that?

Just. And if you if you do love movies and you haven't you should like that just seems like Yeah, that would just seems strange to me if you have it. Well, why is it that way or what? What, like drives Japan to be so original? I guess outof its originality. But is it the culture that makes all these products of original artistry or whatever that is good enough to influence other people or whatsit come from?

So I think it's I think it's I feel Japan is is very balanced. It, uh in the sense that Japanese culture has no problems with being old and traditional and knowing about their heritage, and then also accepting new ways of doing things or new ways of expressing themselves through through art. Um So you have a lot of the filmmaking and a lot of the music that you could say, Well, filmmaking that So I guess a Western thing or, you know, comes from the West or whatever, but they have a distinctive There are distinctive tropes or distinctive now storytelling techniques that I, I think, comes from.

Used to ride from Japanese drama like stage drama, Japanese literature and so being being at home with both of those. So I make this comment about Japan that, like you could walk down the street and see all the neon lights and the convenience stores and trains and and all this like modernity. And then you see some women walking around in kimono and there's no like there's no like weirdness about it. It all fits together like I feel people in Japan are very at home with both modernity and their traditional heritage that maybe you don't see in a lot of countries.

I don't know. It's just that there's so comfortable in their own skin that Ah, you know, it's like it's like those people in high school when you know, you're still trying to figure out everything in, you know, these people who are just there, they're very comfortable, outgoing, and it's like they're years ahead of you and just like like they're all put together and you just want to be like them and what it's like, how and that's like, what Japan is, it's It's an attractive quality, just kind of seeps through all the things that they create.

I guess, Well, yeah, it influences everything that they create. Is that comfortable in this with themselves as a nation? And it makes them to be desired by other people? Yeah. Yah, Yeah. So yeah, I'd say, like, like you said, put together that's That's a good phrase. That's yeah, no it's like other. I'm trying to think of how. You know, I don't even know what traditional American culture might look like. And if it would be out of place if we saw it.

Or maybe maybe we see it. We don't know. We see it. I don't know. But there's There's definitely a feeling in Japan that, like, yeah, everything's put together and people were right, You know, they're fine with both aspects of both the future and the past sort of speak. No, that's cool. Well said. I like that, as I imagine it would be for anybody daily life and those Asian countries that you've lived in Japan and China must have seemed pretty exotic at first.

Can you give an example of a time when you realized how different something was in the culture compared to your life in the US and to the point and an example, something like where, despite all this, all these crazy different things and that hope human beings air just still human beings like that. Just that's like a normal thing in America. Are that people in America do that too. The count both sides of that.

Yeah, um Soas faras like Oh, yeah, As far as like culture is being different. Come on. So in in Hee Major, where I lived they would have. I guess it was kind of like a harvest festival. Um, and they would call it kink kink. Ahmat City. Kinka means fighting, and Mott City is like a festival. And there would be these really big sort of portable shrines and tens tens of guys, you know, I'm going to guess like thirty or forty or fifty guys.

They would put this shrine upon their shoulders, and it was huge, you know, if it fell and they have in the past, if it fell and crushed someone that they would die like these air huge. And there's even guys in assuring that air drumming and stuff. So now there was the big one that was just outside of him aging a town called Nada and there might be, Oh, gosh, maybe like ten, eight or ten shrine's fighting at the same time.

They would bash them together and see who would fall over first, and you would see hundreds of people trying to carry these shrines and the drums air going. And everyone in the crowd is cheering along and it's just It's just a sight that you would never see here. And you're wondering like what? Like what are all the the different traditions and all the different? Like Why is this, like, Why might What am I doing here?

Watching this like And so that was I guess there were other things, too. But that was sort of like, ah, high moment, every year of wow. This I would never see anything like this in America. And there was a neighborhood they would have a smaller can combat city, So maybe only three or four at a time would fight, and that was actually in him aging. And now I was invited by that neighbors to come and participate.

So I got dressed up in this little belt and, uh, went out there and carried the shrine all day and fought. That was sort of like, This is just crazy. This is bizarre. And it was really fun is really exhausting on. And I got to meet a lot of people, and that was really cool. But that was That was something that was like, I would never be able to experience something similar to this, um But then, of course, if you ever share a dinner with someone at their house, whether it's with their family or it's just them or whatever any country that ever been to and done this as I've not been to so many countries.

But anytime that I've shared dinner with someone at their house, then it was like, Oh, it was one of those like people are all the same moments. People enjoy the company of their family making small talk, eating dinner. And just like that, this this is like the most familiar thing ever, so that's moments like that is like I feel. You have to seek those out to make, you know, toe like if you're visiting a foreign culture, a foreign country and you know, you go to restaurants and eat food and stuff and that's cool.

But I think sharing, sharing it a dinner or a lunch with a with a family in a family setting that's really cool. Yeah, that's that should be the goal of of of of travel or visiting other places. Do they agree with that? Yeah, If you get to that point, it's like, Oh, this is This is a really special memory that that you'll cherish. So, um and way more than like visiting tourist sites are you know what? Whatever other things people do when they travel.

But, yeah, it's a sharing, sharing a meal with someone in their houses like that super special. You know, though, when I travel to Germany, I also did that. I stayed on farms and like save families for weeks at a time, and it was super awesome. But you know one thing that, like I can't get over in a way that once you established that sort of personal relationship with those people, it's kind of hard to leave and I never thought home I got I can't leave.

I need to stay here If I was always going to leave for sure. But it just makes it hard. And, uh, and I can't imagine I don't actually know what time of your life, all the details along the way. Like how long you're here, how money, fame, meals you shared with X Y Z. But like, you know, it's like when you leave the country or when you leave a city and you it's like your family doesn't come with you. You know, it's like you're gone forever.

Probably like I remember being in this one house with this German grandma who's like one hundred two or something ridiculous. And, uh, or maybe she's like ninety two or something. But like when I was leaving saying goodbye, it was just like she was crying. I was about to cry, and it was because it was never going to see each other again. And it's especially when you travel so far away, you know, and you come back and we're not.

It's like it's more meaningful. I want trade it for anything, but same time. It's like more tolling on the on the mind, whereas, like normal tourism is more like light, surface, sea and just kind of like, Oh, that was That was a nice taste. That was a nice variety of wine. I tried tonight, you know? Yeah, I don't know. But you came back like and you eventually met your spouse there in China, right? So you carried, you know, family around now, or, you know, people there and you go back.

And so I think that's really cool. Um, that the's country's air like a part of you still and will be forever. So yeah. Yeah, well, it's yeah. It's difficult to keep up with everyone or to sort of express your gratitude for the time that they were in your life. But, you know, I have been able to go back to places and visit people or, you know, keep up with them through email or whatever, But yeah, that is like, uh, you know, I lived in Japan for six years, and it's It's really weird.

Like talking with people in the U. S. Like I keep, I keep getting asked if I went to this like robot restaurant in Tokyo Robot restaurant in Tokyo. I don't know. I don't know what this is and apparently it's really fun or whatever, but it's kind of like No, like I lived there like I went. I made friends, like, really good friends. And you did all this stuff. I didn't go to some dumb ass fucking restaurant like like I I I'm assuming I'm maybe just pissing on people's experience are, you know, being a a Debbie Downer or whatever, but but yeah, No, I I didn't go to see touristy stuff.

I live there, work there and that that was way more way cooler than doing touristy stuff. Yeah, I think it's people when they try to relate to your experience or they have like it's Ah, it's a short little conversation, like, Oh, you went to Japan. Where did you It's like they have one question to ask. I think they're goingto Yeah, they're going to ask about the stupid restaurant because it's, like, so really get, like all of your experiences and see, the beauty of the whole thing would require, like, a whole hours of conversation, then, you know, so, yeah, it's the pride.

Depends on the nature of conversation. And people probably don't know a lot about Japan in the questions that even asks. Yeah, yeah, that. And to be fair, I guess that's, you know something that is a hot tourist thing. And that's what people know. Um, and I like robots. So maybe maybe I should go. Next time I go back, I should go to the robot restaurant. I don't know. Ah, yeah. So Trump always talks about how important it is to compete with China.

When did the prosperity happen? Over there, From your experience, can you relate the prosperity between China, Japan and the United States? All this is this is a really, like cool questions. So, uh, So towards the end of the seventies, China opened up it's country too foreign businesses and two, they started to encourage tourism. Even though tourism is, it's such a small, like foreign tourism for China is such a small, small, small part of their economy, but just being open to people visiting out so that that all started like late seventies, early eighties and So you had people who no.

You know, after the economic hardships in the fifties and sixties and the culture revolution in the sixties, all these like, really bad things that that happened in China now now, people were wanting to do business. They wanted to make money and make a living. And so a lot of that prosperity thinking, you know, started started back in the eighties. But then it really ramped up. It really started to ramp up like, you know, mid to late nineties than in China really started opening up.

And now as it was when I you know, when I lived there, so I live there. I started living there, maybe about see Frances. Ten or eleven years ago is something that yeah, there was. There was a lot of money there like people. People like people were becoming, like, really rich. So, Sonny, you know, here we have the once it's a French word nouveau riche, like the new rich. Yeah, so they're they have good. They have sort of similar, like like before your family was was either poor or middle class.

And then suddenly you find yourself at the head of, you know, multi million dollar company. And this was like, it just felt like it was happening everywhere and people were becoming rich. And it was great as an English teacher because you could argue that English probably isn't all that important for most people in China. But boy people were, you know, they would be happy to pay you a lot of money for an English lesson.

So it's great for me. And it was also interesting in China, living there that you would see these totally new neighborhoods with malls and nice really nice, well tended plazas and parks and completely modern and so clean and so new. And it was like it was like living in the future, and then you would walk maybe a few blocks away from that and it would be like, Oh, this is old school China No, sort of like seeing the differences and it's happening so quick.

I think it's really exciting. And of course, that continues to this day like round. Was it on my own with my wife's family, like they're from there? There was a leak from Johnny, which is like a city in the countryside, in honey and no out in the middle of these old villages. They have like, high rise apartments with coffee shops. Bell bottom now, and it's just it's just bizarre. You see these, like high rise apartment buildings just stuck in the middle of this village and its light, huh?

Okay, so that's where we're going. Like it is really cool. Of course, it's good to see you, especially in the countryside. People enjoying a better standard of living. So But then when you compare that to, say America like it's I mean, it's a fact that we're still way more richer. But if you go and look at the state of our like infrastructure, like we don't have high speed trains, we have, like, crumbling bridges that that needs lots of work and and all this saw their stuff, and I'm just thinking, like, what are we?

What are we spending our money on, like China's building, you know, high speed train network and nice highways and and all this other stuff, So it's kind of like, Oh, man, this is This is really strange. This feels weird because I'm in a rich country doesn't really feel like it sometimes, like it's accumulating technical. That, as we would say, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly and you know, I'm sure that, you know, it could be addressed.

I'm not sure if politicians are necessarily interested in addressing it because it's not down. I mean, it doesn't pull it any sort of patriotic strings or sort of liberal tendencies either. To say all we need a new bridge like that doesn't sound exciting at all. Like, except if you're driving and you I need to get places. And I guess that's what's interesting, because what's that? What's that new train system called?

That's it under a lot of, ah, almost no pressure of, oh, hyperloop. Hyperloop? Yeah, uh, it's it's like a chimp isn't the government. And I don't know if I even we'll see what comes of Hyperloop assuming that, for example, is awarded to work. It's like, Isn't that something government would was well would build, because that's what the government is traditionally done. But it's like the government doesn't solve these problems anymore.

It's like space X, like Ah, you see more and more like businesses that are taking over like transportation, like the bird scooters. In fact, honey and senior bird scooters around here anymore. But maybe because it's winter. But it's like you see, cos taking over transportation problems and solving them, you know? Well, so the wanted the first problem with, like, hyper loop I'm stuff is the eminent domain.

Like being able to get property to run your to run your tracks. So, yeah, like, historically, the government was just able to do that, or there was no one living there. We'll suffer Native Americans, right? So you just take their land and okay, now we have Ah, a railroad? No. But now, I mean like so they were talking about having it run across Missouri, which is is cool, but at the same time, you get a lot of light.

Sort of backlash. Like people say, Well, I can drive. I could drive to see. Plus, why do I need that? It's like, well, takes an hour and a half and on Hyperloop take twenty minutes Half our lesson. That and you also don't have to deal with, like, the dangers off driving which any time I drive to St Louis like it's just, like, so nerve wracking, like there's so much traffic. It just seems so dangerous. Now we see racks and stuff, and there wouldn't There wouldn't be a rat like with hyperloop, you wouldn't see or even just high speed trains.

You wouldn't see any, right? Come on. So, yeah, it's kind of like I don't know. Is Missouri ready for that? Or are we ready for that? Like people get just kind of, like, bent out of shape about, like, oh, I can drive anywhere I want, so I don't know. Yeah, that's good that someone's doing it. Because if not the government, then companies like there seems to be like, um yeah, with the only thing with scooters, though, is when they would show up to a city and they were just kind like dump him out and just kind of deal with deal with the consequences later I was, yeah, I have mixed feelings about that, too, but it's like it's almost sort of magical in a way, because it's like it's stuff you're you're going to remember forever, you know, it's It's an experience.

It's just like, Well, here it is. Here's the future. It's like that commercial they came out of years ago. It's like Hoverboards, Aerial or whatever. And then it was just a fake commercial, right? Yeah, but it was, like, really well done. And you just like, holy moly. Like, I guess the future is here, and and then it just kind of shows up at your doorstep. Yeah, and of course, I was all fake. It was hilarious, but I mean it.

That's what technology is like. It's like magic, right? So when the birds cures Shope and just like control with your phone and it's like, Damn, this is this This is the future right here. We're living in it. So yeah, um so I don't want to go on to too much longer, but I have tons of questions asked. So before I'm going to, I want to talk a little bit about the Internet since we both are into that. Okay, so we both are similar in that.

I think we both spent our earlier earlier years enamored with the Internet and navigating it when it was in its early stages. That is, you know, middle late nineties, early to thousands. Do you have any thoughts on how the Internet has changed? Or maybe more specifically, how Internet culture has changed and even more night like, for example, you know, from mailing list of message boards, chat rooms, games, stuff like four channel read it.

Like the tools that connect an honest people. It's amore Semyon ominous anonymous, like whoever wants to be anonymous, Tam B and that connects them in ways that, like these people, would obviously never meet in real life outside of the Internet. You know, like how that culture has changed since you remember first navigating in intern. Yeah, so There's kind of like a I say like a normalizing effect. Like if you're a weirdo and you're in a small town and you might be the only weirdo, which that's not the case.

Like when I lived in sites and like I had, I had plenty of friends who were also weirdos, and on that was finding stuff. But the huh? You know, if you feel that you're alone because you behave someway or like you, like something like you can always find that those other people on the Internet, no matter how strange you might be, you will find the other people on the Internet and you could be friends, which I think is like, really fantastic.

So, you know, if you're into like, you know, the bronies, you know, the my little pony. People like, you know, if you lived in a small town and you're the only guy and suddenly now you have friends on the Internet. Hey, fantastic. That's really cool. And of course that that swings both ways too. Right? So if if you're a really vile dickhead that no one wants to talk to well, you, Khun, try, find the other vile people on the internet tube.

I would say for the most part, that's probably like a net benefit of sort of connecting people and communicating because you know the traditional modes of of meeting your neighbors are communicating with people, whether what that was like going to church or attending some festivals. Maybe that was OK, but that's not the best that doesn't cover one hundred percent of the people. So now we have. We just have new ways of being able to communicate and have a community of people, which is which is really cool, and it also you allow for, like this sort of thiss plurality of of views.

Wow. You know where is before you get your news from the major networks to watch TV? You know, I don't know. I can't think of the last time I went to, like, watched news on a TV from a major network. Now it's just like you would read some article that someone posted on Reddit, and then people might discuss it on do all this other stuff. So anything that sort of encourages multiple points of view, multiple outlets of media and then people writing about it and sort of thinking about things and writing about it.

I think that's sort of a net benefit mom. Because I can't think of, you know, if I go on and post about stuff, I can't think of a time previous to that where I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna write an article today, whereas some people they get on Reddit, they might write an article a day because that's that's how they feel about things. Like they got a lot to say, so I think that's that's perhaps maybe the coolest thing is yeah, people writing and thinking and sharing that that's that's really cool.

And I noticed that, like being on, like, bulletin board systems? No, like they'd have. What was it? What was the thing that would spread all the email or its spread? All the messages around it was like fight. Oh, net spread all the messages around. Yeah. Okay. So you remember bbs, like like a BBS. Like your time. Like a bulletin board system Forum. Yeah. So those things you were dialing locally and then several times a day, they would dial in?

Oh, no, that was This is all for my Yeah, I was like, This is, I guess, I guess the World Wide Web. Just it was it was out there, but just nobody was was on it. But, yeah, these were, like, the original, like forms like message boards. And even though that was a lot smaller back then, I think being able to communicate with someone from a different country or, you know, some far off place in the U. S. On DH, basically have this, like, sort of, like, group pen pal thing I think that was That was really cool, you know, And it's interesting because message boards probably been the biggest survivors, and that's sort of like relics from those days.

Ah, you like mailing lists? Are I mean, pretty much gone in a way. Yeah, in chat rooms like, those are pretty much gone, too. If you don't see those everyone but message for its like you see those so everywhere, like Read it is the most common example of just like a modern message board. More or less. Yeah, and that it's like the basic functionality of those between that and news groups like nothing's really changed.

And we'll even even like the chat rooms and stuff like now there's It's not really a chat room for say, but like like, label. Have you ever heard of that? Yeah, that's a that's a pretty big gap that you, Khun. I'm not trying to think it might not be so useful in the US, but in China it's it's like it's It's kind of like an app that does everything. But anyways, you can do all sorts of chat, message, message, board type stuff.

But yeah, it's it's It's weird that, like from the first days of the Internet, like till now, it's that's still kind of sort of the main thing that people do when they get on. It hasn't changed all that much, So it's all this talk of, like went, too. And with three O and that sort of it was buzz words. So, like, what's coming after the Internet? You still see it being like the same in that the purpose of the Web.

There's just to connect people who have similar interests, more or less, uh, and that's not going to change. I guess. Uh, I I actually like, I'm kind of a pessimist. I think that like countries are going to start fencing off, sort of speak because it's already like China already does that, um and I could easily see lots of other countries going that way as well, where it's meant to be a fenced off like you talk to people in your own country or you do.

You have maps that are businesses within your own country. So I'm kind of a tte the moment. I'm kind of a pessimist about it. I'm not sure if if they're going to go the way and America, too, if people are going to go the way off like something that's liberalizing or or free. And I mean liberal, like in the classical sense liberating. I'm not sure if that's the direction will be headed. Um so I don't know.

No. Yeah, It's always interesting when I was, uh, if I try to do, like, download a YouTube video using YouTube to mp three dot com or something inside Saeko because of your country, you're not allowed to download this video. And of course, and I'm always startled him. Like, how is that possible? Like United States, man, what the help? Do you have to go soon, Okay. Cool. So we'll ask some of random really deep questions.

Okay? And then we'll finish with some more quicker questions. Okay? All right. So the deep ones are. Why is it so difficult for humans to consider the possibility that life may be pointless? Why is it difficult? Why is it difficult for people? I consider the possibility? Yeah. Well, because I think it's it's it's scary. It's like they don't want that to be true. So there's actually a lot of things that may or may not be true, but people don't even want to consider it.

Um, and they can't a lot of people, they can't give you a rational answer as to why that. Why that notion might not be true, but they often say, Oh, it's scary to think if if that were true and I don't like what that implies And so one thing I like to argue about is this notion of free will. So when When you say, I guess, I guess you know, like a philosophy class or, you know, some like that discussed this, but it's either.

I feel that most people either believe in complete free will or a freewill tempered by your biology or, you know, sort of the things that you and you go through in life. But they never considered that you might be a completely deterministic entity. And you bring that third That third option up of being that might not happy anything like free will and people like I won't You don't want to live in a world where you're just, you know, he's just a robot.

That's like, Well, it's not about what I want. It's about what may or may not be true. Um, so this is kind of like in the class of questions, as you know, his life could. Could life be pointless. And yeah, I think that scares people. They're they're scared about the implications, more so than wanting to know the truth. All right, so tonight. I don't know why that like, I I would almost prefer something pointless.

Because then I would be free to sort of make up the things that I think I could make up the point that there was no point to be had. Then the freedom would be with me to make the point. So I kind of liked that idea. So you like the idea, but you don't know if it's true or not. I guess so. I don't know if it's true, but I don't I don't mind discussing it and I don't mind. Like if it were true, What What would be the implications?

It's not so scary for for me. Um but I suspect for other people the way that they've built their lives and the way that their belief system is, is that if those were like, yanked out from under them, they might go a bit stir crazy. No. So I think I think that's why people don't want to consider things like that. Yeah, I was talking about with my younger brother recently, and I I always bring up these things, and I always have.

But he he always says something like, Don't think about it. Don't think about that, like it. And you know, he probably knows what's best for you his own mental health, and I don't Ah, but But, yeah, there's a I'd say most people have a guard there, like not willing to sick help. I don't open up that that rabbit hole. I'm content with what understanding I have. And what if that's closer to truth or not? That doesn't matter.

So if a crystal ball could tell you the truth about yourself, your life, the future or anything else, What is the first thing that you'd want to know? Let's see if Yeah, if I could if I could be shown like the most expedient way two improve myself in some way. Um or like how to go about things because I feel that, uh, there's so much sort of prejudice for, you know, if we want to prove ourself, improve ourselves in some way, like we want to be less cranky or we want to be more diligent here, whatever.

So our prejudices color the way that we think that we want to improve. But if we had a crystal ball, who that had perfect knowledge and, uh, I could give you without prejudice. How to how to achieve those things. That's what I would. Would that be like the same thing for every example that you could think of? Or would it be like, Okay, well, if I want to improve how to not getting greasy, said or ah, or be a better fighter like the Crystal Ball would have to give a different answer for each or are you searching for some like, underlying Like it underlying Method two, changing something about yourself?

And it's all the same method, more or less, Yeah, like habit forming such I suspect it would be like for everyone, but for someone to be for something to be able to peer through, like my prejudices or my life experiences and beliefs and then sort of like, given honest answer because sort of like self honesty or self reflection, is perhaps it's possible, but is very difficult. Um, and you can't necessarily trust it.

So, like if there was a crystal ball that I imagine, if it could show us the future or whatever it like, it has some sort of like perfect knowledge. I like to be able to ask something that, um, that it could it could see through your your beliefs and your prejudices like that. That to me would be really cool sort of knowledge. I see. So more or less would be some like objective analysis that, yeah, that you can't see past because you're in your own body, like with your own thoughts.

And it will tell you exactly what you need to do. X Y Z the best way, that's interesting. Would you say that we're more thinking or feeling beings? So of course we're both. I suspect that we are more feeling. Because pure calculation, Why? I guess they're both They're both calculations, except the thinking. Part is is the part that we have the voice in her head. We're aware of it, whereas the feeling part is buried deeper and we're not, um, like with the crystal ball we don't have.

We don't have access two. The calculations that happened deeper that they give. That give Rice too no feelings. So, for example, um Let's say you're you're really hungry, and you get the feeling that you're hungry. Now, of course, we know that when you don't eat, you get hungry. Um, but then if you get super hungry and you notice, maybe either you become more focused, you might become more competitive, or all these different, like aspects of your personality that normally wouldn't come out.

You don't necessarily see the connections, whereas, um, so those air those air feelings. But those are all calculations based on like, oh, you need to get calories in your body. Like for your for you to live. So try a bit harder, so that comes up is being more competitive where or or whatever so I feel that, um in the end way, all are more feeling. No. You mean you think that me and we're all feeling who?

Yeah, no, that's that's good, because, like, in order to talk about it, you need to think about it. But then you're talking about and you're thinking about the things that you can't think about, the things that just a rise in you. So it's kind of it's kind of like we have these, uh, sort of layers to our to our conscious mind like that, we only get the surface level, and then there's a whole nother, and that's that's true, like there were parts of your brain that control, like your heartbeat and all this other stuff that if you had to consciously think about that, that crazy right, you would be able to do it.

Or maybe you would be able to do that, but not nothing else. So I'm sure there's some, like, some Asian form of martial arts, or they have to train themselves two to stop being their heart being for X y Z. Reason Like, I think I was watching his Joe Rogan podcast where he was saying that some fighters were trained themselves to basically be kicked in the balls without getting hurt, because they're able to, like, you know, yeah, change the location of of their private parts centre with not using your hands.

So, uh, okay, But he said that was b s, but I don't know, like that part's b s. But there are, like, people who meditate and they're able to control things like body temperature. They're able to slow down their heart rate. Uh, like, consciously, um and which, even though that's not like that's not like magical, that's still pretty cool. So I do think, yeah, there, there there's like hacks or or things you could do to put yourself in a state of mind where you have access to that.

But, you know, it's like it's like when your programming, you know, if you have some Java script. Don't necessarily have access to like individual registers on the chip. So which would be it be silly to do You know, that's not how it works, but like it's like built in layers so that you don't need to worry about the computer at some level so abstract about right? No, I like that analogy. But the basic thing that we're trying to communicate, if I could attempt to somewhere as it would be like thinking is conscious and feeling, is self conscious and by far by and large, like most of the things that our bodies do, most of the things that we make decisions from our like stem from unconscious feelings and yeah, Feeling so?

Yeah, I think. And I I'm going to guess that like, revolutionaries speaking like the thinking part came relatively glee where that came. I don't I don't know when but on the animals, I should say, like, animals that are not us, uh, clearly have feelings. And they clearly act based on circumstance. And, you know, they do have feelings. They do have, like, affection in fear and things that they don't like.

And what not, um do they have a voice that they can reflect upon their existence in their head? I don't know that that's that's like heavy stuff, but I suspect that the thinking stuff came much later on. Cool. What's your favorite thing about being alive in two thousand nineteen? I really want to say something like like something like something about Dink means or something about gnome kid or some, like right, like something like because it's just I don't know if there's anything special about two thousand nineteen.

I don't know. I think I feel pretty good about living in their any era. Well, I take that back. Yeah, No, we definitely romanticize the past. It's it's good to be alive in two thousand nineteen because it's not eighteen twenties or it's not the sixteen hundreds or the nineteen eighties or even the nineteen eighties. Even in that decade was awful, man, even though, objectively, it had the best music. Oh, that's it.

I always like adding the word objectively speaking, you and that really sets people off, right? Yeah, there's that we might get in a fight. You might be doing some taekwondo. By the end of this interview, if a publisher was to release your autobiography off the top your head, what would the title be? Hush, there's nothing on the top of my head. All right. So how about this? OK, they want to send the glue in the binding.

What smell would it be like? You can add a smell to the glue. Yeah, if you could. If I could. I soon they They do that. You can do that, right? You can make people make books, smell like certain things. Well, let's just say they sent the binding the glue in the binding. What smell what you choose to be in there. Oh, man, I really like strawberries. And I like when things smell like strawberries sown. I mean. I guess if I could choose like them, that would be the smell.

Okay. Yeah. I think other people would enjoy that, too. Okay. Yeah. Strawberries. Pretty pleasant smell. It's pride more pleasant than me. Rubbing the book on my armpit and then turning it out like this is the most unique smell that Jessie Paisley so strawberries ever you could grow strawberries anywhere. You can't grow Jessie's everywhere, and so this is the last of his body odor in this finding. Good. That was much better than the other thing I was going to see, which I'll tell you.

Yeah, of. Please tell me something good you've never had. And you never want something good that I've never had and that I don't want. Oh, man, I don't want I don't want a movie theater in my home, Okay? Like I think even like big TVs are a bit too much. And so, thankfully, like I'm I'm still like, we've still managed to not get a TV yet, so I'm pretty pretty stoked about that. But, man, when I see rich people like getting like like little theaters in their house, just like you have that many friends.

You pay people to sit in the seats. Come on, now. Build on that. That's good. Ah, what's the healthiest cultural shift you see developing today? Here in America? Healthiest cultural shift or in the world? Um um so I don't know if it's a cultural shift, but something that I notice out support with the Internet and just in the sort of the world at large. So the world is becoming more and more middle class and more and more sort of.

Carol like being at home with multiple cultures and ways of thinking and not going batshit insane when something's different, then what you're used to. So I think I think that's sort of economic. It doesn't feel like it like you watch the news, and it doesn't feel like the world is becoming more normal and middle class. Um, but I I look at the numbers and that that's true. So the amount of people that have, like a stable family life and stable jobs and are able to like care for their families and get healthcare things like this, like I'd say that's sort of like trend, which I'm not try and think that that's a cultural trend or not, But like that gives me sort of hope and that I'm pretty optimistic about that.

I think that's pretty healthy. How? I'd like to think that gone are the days or the days when this doesn't happen. Is is soon off sort of big countries bullying smaller countries that, like like you did like you saw in the Cold War. So you had U s Russia and then the Third World, right? So I would like to see an end to that. This farm's like worldwide culture goes so hopefully and you know, by the numbers it seems that way.

That's that's what sort of gives me encouragement and hope for sort of like world peace or or whatever, but well, see, I don't know that that could be anyone should just hippie talk. There's world peace. You're ready for your Miss America interview? Yeah, No, but I see what you're saying. And that was a good answer anyways. So ah. On what occasion do you lie? Um what occasion do I lie? I'd say there's. There's times that I've lied to myself to keep myself from going crazy or to get depressed or whatever.

Sort of like everything will be okay. That that That right there is that straight up hippie talk. So you tell yourself that and at the time you might be lying. But sometimes you need that Now you're ready for you, Miss America Interview and your nineties hit song Lear cried ing session. Yeah, yeah. So I I think, yeah, there's been occasions, I think in times of defeat or depression or, um, when I've been disappointed in myself that I've had to lie to myself.

I definitely sugarcoat things when I talk to people. I'm not sure if those air necessarily lies cause I try to be. Sometimes I try to be diplomatic, or I try to spin things in a positive way so that people can act on them rather than get confrontational with me. So I think when I was younger, I was always very confrontational. And, um, but I'm not sure if sugarcoating things his line. It almost reminds you that Eric Andre episode where he's he's like down the ground with the microphone open these everything's like going wrong because of course, it's theater keandre show, but he's like, You gotta spin this thing positive.

I'm like I was like, I don't I don't think I did. I was watching us. It's hilarious, but no, I like I actually with the first part of question you went to you went to yourself first. Um, so really inward thinking there and final question. If your ruler of the world, what would you do on your first day? I was the ruler of the world. Um Oh, well, since I'm the ruler, I would probably gather as many, uh, like smart.

Broad thinking people as possible, um, into a meeting or into a a brainstorming session, or, uh, something like that. I I feel that politicians and actual rulers get in the way of really smart people doing things, Not to say that smart people are automatically going to do the right thing. But, um, they kind of put a damper on things. That's right, what I do. I pride get gather as many smart people that I could think of or that I could be suggested to bring to brainstorm what, Like just how to rule the world out to that, No one's ever done that a while.

I don't think about that one. That's crazy. Yeah, Anything about no one's No one's done it. And, uh, no one's even really come close. And even if they thought they ruled the world, they didn't rule it for very long. So, uh, thanks. Time. It's Shakespeare's Ma'am. No, that's really good. You know, when I asked Connor that question, he said something about, like, Gather, all basically similar gather all smart people in the world in the room.

But his was specifically to to find out how we can make concensus, and yours is like, even more. That's a specific example, but it's almost similar. And yours is how to rule the world. I mean that that just makes you think even more so. Really nice answer, man. Okay, Yeah, no, that's that's actually like a really difficult question because it's kind of like, What do you do after you win a basketball game like, I don't know, train for the next basketball basketball game?

Like what? Like except in this case, no one's ever done it. And then what do you do? Because everyone's failed before. I don't You go and make the album adore by smashing pumpkins. That's what you do. That was to get out. But, you know, you know what? This morning it was. It was really funny. I was I was listening. I was listening to some music, and then it got into the smashing cos you know, on the YouTube, you know, whatever's next to my suggested box.

And then a bunch of smashing Pumpkins came up and, like, Adore. And then, uh, one of the two albums that came after that machina, Yeah, and I was pretty much it for that ninety. You know, for their sense, they re joined and made a card for since then, but so, yeah, like a door and machinelike at the time. I thought, uh, it's just not as good a scientist dream or melancholy. But then, like now I listened, like, really go.

Yeah, I've always loved them. I'm always like what people think. It's just the expectations. It's just like when you when you do something like like melancholy. It's just like, how can anything be better than that? Way like? And that's what Bill even says and not to get on the whole smashing offense. Tanja right at the very end of this. But, you know, like And that's why you really to the rule of the world.

It's like because, you know, it's like winning the presidential election. It's just like the biggest race you could possibly win in the whole world. More or less. Oh, at least in America, and it's just like, Oh, then what do you do? What? You maybe build a wall would fit the orb or censor. But anyways, Jessie, thanks for joining me here. Today is a pleasure talking with you. Those were a lot of lot of interesting questions, Joseph.

Thank you very much. Interesting questions and interesting answers. Thank you very much, man.