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Joseph talks to John Sonmez about his life

The voice of John Sonmez was along with me the whole way through my journey to land my first job as a software developer. He's a prolific content creator through Pluralsight and his youtube channel. I was so excited when he responded to my request to interview him and I tried not to be too star struck during the interview... I thank John eternally for his content and this interview!

Recorded on 2018-09-10

Speakers: Joseph Weidinger and John Sonmez

Automated Transcription (*)

John sound as you're a successful software developer consultant investor entrepreneur in constant maker, to name a few. And I won't start this out by thinking you personally for your content. I encountered you mostly through pleural site when I was learning soft development while working at a columbia, missouri's most esteem pizza joint. And that your numerous courses where a large part of my education and they gave me the confidence to build my own projects and nail my job interview and etcetera, etcetera and everything worked out great.

And I think you largely for that, so thanks. You're welcome. Awesome. I'm I'm glad that you're able to make that transition so many people don't don't think they can do it. But, you know, uh, it's good to hear that you're able to do that. And and you're working for carfax now, right? Yes. That's true. Yes. I've been there for a year and a half now, and it's ah, super chill job and get to learn and mess with lots of new technologies.

It's very fun. And I say we get the pizza place actually, once a week, but, you know, having different choices. And when that is just awesome. So, uh, now you make a lot of content on who you are and how you think which I love consuming. But I really want to get more context from where you came from to start. So, john, you live in california now, is that right? Yeah, yeah, I'm in san diego now, but you went to high school in hawaii, right?

That's cracked up. What kind of kid were you? Would you say, gosh, that's a hard one. So I was I was a lot different than I am now. Right? So I said I was very shy, not very confident, not very introspective. Not very athletic. Pretty lazy, for the most part. Really? Just, you know, playing a lot of video games and and really, you know, just not really having not very, very goal. And it just kind of trying to, you know, get get through life and just, you know, taking it easy.

For for the most part, you know, I wasn't very driven. Uh huh. And what about what kind of family did you come from? Ah, you know, I came from ah, pretty's pretty standard family, like, you know, my my dad was airforce, and my mom was mostly stay at home. She was she worked a little bit, but mostly stay at home s o pretty, pretty normal life. You know, I have two younger sisters, but, you know, living on air force bases.

So I guess a lot of discipline, like understanding of chain in command in that respect. But, yeah, pretty average, I would say so pretty atomic family of three siblings. And so your dad was in the military. Do you think, ah, lot of your personality is derived from being the son of a military? Okay, I think I think some of it, I think, you know, I didn't really appreciate it when I was younger. But one of the things that kind of served me that actually did serve in my career uneven is an entrepreneur is understanding what they called you.

No chain of command in the military, you know, basically, like, as a military kid, whatever you did. And you know, sometimes I get into trouble. Your your father is responsible for, like, so. So he gets in trouble if you get in trouble. And so just understanding that like, that's kind of how things work. Like, I think a lot of times today in the business world, people wanted to be, you know, sort of this whole, you know, like, oh, I got to say, and I get a vote and, like, we need to be consensus driven.

But ultimately, you know, there there is a change. Like the bosses, the boss, like the, you know, the and that was something that I understood, you know? And I think that helped me a lot was just this idea that, like, look, I have my opinion. I can give some input, but at the end of the day, like whatever the boss says, that's what we do and whether you don't try to sabotage the effort, you know, whether we agree with it or not, we go along with it, and we do.

And we give our full sir support into it, because that's the mission is more important. And so that's I think that's something that's definitely definitely helped me later on in life. Uh, who was the most influential person during those early years? Maybe before you were eighteen, let's say that's tough. One. You know, I think honestly, this is going to sound a little bit funny, but you know what I think about it?

It was it was really like I remember as a kid seeing lou ferrigno playing hercules and the old hercules movies, right? He also played the hulk, you know, back back then. But we were watching the hercules because I was always, like, a very big fan of hercules. It is the idea of hercules. And, you know, one of the things that hercules did was, you know, he picked that while the stuck story of hercules he picked the hard path because it was hard, right?

And so I know I just like when I saw lou ferrigno that kind of inspired me to start lifting. I always wantedto look like hercules from, you know, like lou ferrigno from hercules. And so that got me lifting weights and and so yes, that was that was kind of the thing. I think that inspired me down that path. So what? The weight lifting things, then come till later on, like after high school. I started in high school about like, my sophomore year of high school.

That's that's when I started lifting. But, you know, I I end up getting out of shape, you know, in the in the meantime, at at some point in my career and then got really started game back into shape later on. So so I recall you once saying that when you were nineteen years old, you've got a pretty darn good job. A programming. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah, I did. So I was working at the time for healer packard as a contractor in boise, idaho, and I think I was making like, I was doing good.

Like I felt like I was doing it. I was doing like I had gotten just gotten. And I hadn't gotten my my college degree. Obviously, at this point, I kind of dropped out because I was doing so well, but I was making, you know, kept being raised as I got up to, like, twenty five bucks an hour. And then I got this this crazy job offer, just like out of the blue looking for someone that knew c plus plus. And I didn't really know steeples plus very well, but, you know, this was during the dot com boom.

And I got this call from a recruiter that was recruiting for xerox, and they're looking for contractors, and I basically, you know, they're like, what would you move? Teo, california. Sure, you know, how much is the pay? And they're like, well, said, seventy five bucks an hour and, you know, like, twenty to fifty of it is is tax free because it's per diem cause you're working out of state. So I was like, wow, that's that's, like, ridiculous on dh.

So they had this, like, you know, a guy from xerox, you know, interview me, and it was like this, just basic, like, I mean, like, a fifteen minute. And if even that just very cursory level didn't even really ask me technical questions or anything. And, you know, they're like, okay, you got the job. So, you know, that was it was crazy. As you know, seventy five dollars an hour, right at nineteen. I was like, i'll be there next week, you know, packed up my geo metro, but everything I own in there and just, you know, drove down to california, so yeah, it was crazy.

I mean, it was just one of those kind of right place, right time, you know, type of opportunities on dh. That was what year is that done? That was like two thousand won. Our note. That was like, I think I was nineteen. Ninety nine, actually. Yeah. Nineteen. Ninety nine. So you graduated high school in about ninety eight or so? Exactly? Yep. Yep. Cool. So you do your own thing these days? Is there anything you miss about having, like, a straight up nine to five software job?

Yeah. You know, actually, is there's always this fantasy. I think when you're an entrepreneur, when you're on your own of, like, the, you know, that it's almost like I think of it as you know, that if you've seen the matrix, that one scene in the matrix where he's got the steak right, and he's like that perfectly cuts, you know, cook steak. And he's, you know, he wants to get plug back into the matrix.

I'll forget that the character's name, but sometimes I feel like that, right? Because, you know, the thing is when when I was working the regular nine to five job, it's like you just show up, you know, and you get into the office and you know, you chat with some co workers, you sit down to your desk, right, and there's this. You know, a lot of the time, you're just spending kind of having a good time, kind of like you don't realize at the time.

But like you're chatting with people is very social environment. And when you leave and you go home, for the most part, you're you're done and like someone else is telling you what to do. And you know if the stuff doesn't get done, it's not really. I mean, it's not the huge, huge deal. But as an entrepreneur, I think one of the hardest things is that like, there's no one to tell you what to do and that seems like a good thing.

And in it is ultimately. But it is the most stressful, like it's like when your days open and it's like you have to decide what you're going to do and you are completely responsible for the you know, the outcome of that. And if you don't do any work, you feel guilty all the time like it's just you know, it kind of reminds you that whole matrix thing. So there's that kind of fantasy of, like, maybe I should go back to a normal life, remember?

You know, when you said just goto work, get home place in world of warcraft, you know what I mean? Like, you know, just chill out. And life isn't like that anymore. But, you know again, like logically I know. You know, this is why I could never go back like this is I wouldn't go back. I wouldn't get plug back in. You know, this is this is the choice and path for me. But there is definitely that, you know, you ramen and ian, you're alone, right?

Like, you know. I mean, I've got friends and stuff that they meet up with from from time to time and and work with in my company. But for the most part, it's like, you know, you are. I spent a lot of time in isolation. Would you say that you more pursue happiness or meaning at this point? Definitely. Well, you know, I was going to say definitely meaning, but I don't know. I think there's a balance, right?

I think there's a balance of and I think that what it is is I always talk about the utility value of money, and there's kind of this this utility value of life, right? And I think that, you know, there's there's a certain point we're like sacrifice has a much higher value right to you than it does at a different point. So so what I mean by this is, you know, it's easier to see this with the utility value of money.

But you know, a lot of people when I give financial advice right there or when they give financial advice like kind of dave, you've got the dave ramsey's. And then you've got the kind of, you know, the dave ramsey would say, you know, save, save, save, you know, cut up your credit cards, you know, and then you've got someone like remit settee who you know, has yeah, i'll teach you to be rich is kind of his missing and he'll say, like, oh, you know, don't worry.

Spend don't don't save, you know, buy starbucks every morning like just make more money like you couldn't don't skimp on on that kind of stuff and they're both wrong and they're both right, right? Because what what matters is, you know, if you're making, let's say thirty thousand dollars a year. You should be super. You should cue clip coupons. You should be super cautious. Never eat out like very, very sacrificing.

Right? Because if you can save a couple of thousand extra dollars a year, that's huge, right? That's going to make a huge difference in your life in your future. You can invest that money. You invest in education future like all that. If you're making eun on the extreme end, let's say three hundred thousand dollars year. Let's say your nice, high paid developer in silicon valley, you should not be like you.

It doesn't make any sense to skimp on like, you know, to try and get something for for lesson it. Like, if you see even extra three or four thousand dollars a year is not going to be any different at all. Like the effort won't be worth it. So that utility value is less so the same thing with sacrifice in general. Right? So early on in life, when you're trying to get started or when you don't have much going for you, you really got to buckle down.

You gotta work hard. Put in those sixty, seventy, eighty hour weeks. Bust your ass, right? Learn what you can, you know, sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice for, you know, differ happiness, right? Like just brined. Right? But later on, in life, like after you become more successful, there's kind of a diminishing value of that, right? That sacrifice doesn't really add much more to your life, right? It doesn't give you much more opportunities.

It doesn't. So so you've got to kind of balance and start to say, well, you know what? I should probably actually started enjoying life a little bit, otherwise it's kind of a hole. Waist, right? It's like you kind of wanna optimize that curve. So you getting the max value and the max value is where, you know, you optimize the amount that you put in versus the amount that you get out, you should get out more than you put it, okay?

And people play it wrong, right? Some people, what they'll do is they will sacrifice like, crazy. I think, you know, like, here's a good example. I think I would say is warren buffet, right? You know, I have nothing against warren buffett. But when I hear the stories of him living in the same house, you know this old house that he bought when he was his young and he's just so frugal, I'm like, wow, like he's not maximizing the value that he created right in his life because he's not going to get to enjoy all the work that he put in, and that's fine.

Maybe maybe he has reasons for that, right? But but then there's other people that are like, in fact, a lot of the younger generation today is like yolo, you know, you live only once and there's, like, live for today and lets you know I see them at night clubs sometimes, you know, buying tables. And I'm like, you can't afford this like, right? And it's like, this is not smart like, yes, you're gonna have this big, you know, chunk of happiness here, but it's going to diminish like you're not going to make it like you're going to be having have a miserable time for the rest of your life.

So there's that balance tto find that and usually it's like you front load the sacrifice and then you get the benefit later on. So at the point where I'm at right now, I'm definitely I'm, you know, more skewed. I'm not in that sacrifice mode like I used to be. I still do hard work. I still bust my ass, you know, especially in the in the gym and running and all that stuff. But I take a little bit more time to pursue happiness as well, right?

And and I think that the meaning just just comes from from doing that from being able to live that that balance life. So yeah, so that's my long answer to your question. I like how you really to finances, and that was very new. Ah, and with regards to warren buffett's house, I remember him saying in an interview once that he's like, I can't afford any house in the whole world, but there's no house I'd rather live in there other than this one right here.

And the guy eats like mcdonald's like three times a day. Two. It's really interesting, but it's yeah, it's not something I would do either. But it was. What's your biggest strength? Uh, your biggest underlying strength, john, as a human being would you say soon. That's an interesting question. I don't know if I've really, truly considered that. I I suppose I would say, I mean, I might answer this question in different ways.

On different days today, I would answer the question by saying, I think it's it's just that the ability for me to just like, hang on and not let go, like to just see things, push things to the end, like past the limit and just just keep on hanging on and keep on going to grind it out, right? That's that's one of those things that, like, has served me really well, you know, even even back then, you know, back when you know, we talked about at the very beginning, you asked, like how I was when I was younger.

And, you know, I remember even as a kid, I still haven't attributes cause I would just grind video game like I remember playing final fantasy too, you know, and getting all the characters upto level ninety nine, right? It was just like a ridiculous amount of time and effort. But I could just grind things out, right and and go through that pain and even, you know, just just yesterday I was thinking I ran twenty miles, you know, doing you know doing it was like three, three hours and forty minutes run.

And it's just like, you know, those are the things that that kind of like underlying strength that I have is like aiken aiken force myself to, like, go the extra mile, right? Well said, well said. So you mentioned videogames and won't talk a bit about that because it's interesting. Uh, I find that I have to, like, disassemble my computer. I go in, spurts out, i'll play a video game for a little bit. And now I feel so guilty that I'm just wasting my time.

Uh, that I have to disassemble my computer and throw in the closet for a couple of months until I yeah, opening up again. And, ah, do you ever think? Well, we both know that video games are designed to be hyper, you know, engaging and entertaining. Do you think that normal real life will somehow be as engaging and well designed as a video game one day or that video games will become so immersive that really life will become like this matrix e video game of sorts?

I mean, I think, you know, technically, we're already kind of at that point where you could say, I mean, I remember playing world of warcraft and lord of the rings online in a few different, you know and mamas. And it's like I've gotten to a point where I've been so engaged in the game where it is definitely better than real life. Like in my in my opinion, that time like it's it's all the benefits and none of the pain and, you know, and so so I think we've already kind of cross that threshold.

But but there's a couple things I would say about this, you know, and I played video games still from time to time. But one thing I found cause I can definitely relate to what you're saying. It's like you feel guilty right and and one of the things that I think that that we all kind of struggled with this. This, this thing where we feel guilty when we're like, let's say playing video games that we should be working or doing something productive.

And when we're working in being productive, sometimes we feel guilty that we should be were not relaxing enough, right? So we feel like, you know, whatever, we're doing? We feel like we're doing the wrong thing. And one of the solutions I found two that is time boxing and planning out activities, right? So one of the ways that, like you, would give you the example, right? So today I had I had planned. I said, okay, I'm going to do five pomodoro, eh, worth of work today on, you know, and I've got it planned on my on my board and it's not a huge amount, you know, it's it's just a couple hours.

But I said, okay, I'm doing fine and actually on ly allowed myself to do five because I'm kind of doing experiments, trying to prioritize what I did. And so once I was done with that five, like then I could I could schedule and say, okay, you know, and I didn't do it today, but I could say, ok, I'm going to play an hour and a half or two hours of video game, right? And I find when I've done that in the past, when I do something like that, I don't feel guilty when I'm playing the game because I've purposely planned to do that.

And this is marla or I can enjoy this time because I can actually look forward to it. You know, the one of the things that I always like to say is that time is on ly wasted when we do what we don't intent. So, like, you know, you could say that you that we waste a lot of time watching netflix air, you know, watching tv. So but you know, if you plan it, it's not wasted because you planned. It's a waste when it's like you're supposed to be doing something else and you get distracted and start playing this video game.

And it's like, but if you've planned the time, we're like, you know what I did hire is my work and then I'm going to plan to take an hour or two hours a game or watch a movie or something like that. Then you kind of give yourself the freedom to not feel guilty about it. So that's kind of what I've what I've kind of figured out, and that's helped me a lot. And the same thing with the work, too, because, you know, a lot of times when I was in that real hustle hustle mode I would I would always feel guilty, like I'm not doing enough work.

Once I started limiting and say, ok, you know, here, you dude, I was doing, like, ten pa midori a day was was my my plan. Then it was like, okay, this is all that I can dio and when I'm done with this, I'm done. I've done enough. This is what I was planning on doing and I can I can feel good about that. And I think that's important. You gotta have some kind of time boxing some kind of schedule so they could know, you know, because I think we'll want strategies, things that we did.

It was like we make these lists of things that we want to get done in a day and we don't like we can't control that like things take for amounts of time, that's variable. And so we feel guilty. We kick ourselves. But if we have something fixed, like, you know, the thing that you can control is like if you have eight hours in the day to work and you say, I'm going to work four hours solid, you could control that you can absolutely do that and and then you could be okay with that.

And you can always hit that objective every single time, right? Because there's nothing in that that's out of your control. And so that's what I tried to try and take the things scheduled them, you know, time box. Then whatever I could do to make it so that there's, you know, things don't bleed over and I don't don't feel that guilt. So it's always planned, like the subject you plan is never waste, never waste of time so I heard a statistic that for several decades now, half of all programmers in the world have less than five years of experience.

I think uncle bob said that or something like that, but it's not surprising. I'm guessing it's possible. The statistic that is, because of the drastic growth in the industry, of course, yeah, but a growth that won't last forever. Unless so do you think that we're close to a point for this growth and specifically, probably developers, software developers, software engineering, whatever will slow drastically.

That's a good question. I don't I don't think we're going to slow down any time soon. Hear I? Well, here's what I would say is that it seems inevitable to me that that programming, like the basics offer development skills will become just sort of a basic skill, just like mathematics in reading, writing and writing because it's so fundamental, right? Like every job, every everything. There's not a single job that can't benefit from automation, and and you can really just say programming equals automation.

That's all that programming is right is it's just just automation. And so you know what? Job doesn't have a workflow that couldn't benefit from some kind of automation and more and more people that it's becoming more of a basic skill. It's a good way to look at the world, right. And if you look at it today, I mean, even you look at some of the things that that are taught in general education, and it's like algebra, which is like, I mean how I mean use algebra is definitely in your life, but not ah, huge amount and then even, you know, you know, pre calculus calculus.

We're getting two things that, like, who even really uses that. But it's taught, right? So so why's softer development? Not when that's like. I mean, if you if you have some for development skills, you take any any any worker, any bob, and give them some softer development skills. They're going to figure out a way that you they were like, oh, I could, you know, do this. It's going to be useful for sure. So I think what we'll seymour is that it'll become mohr of just kind of the base level of society.

But I definitely see growth continue. I mean everything. The world is ruled by software. There's not a thing. I was just looking at, you know, finally buying a new car after, like, fourteen years of having metro. I know everything I did. I have I have a two thousand five joy toyota corolla right now. But, you know, I was thinking that I was driving like a bmw driving some, you know, driving, you know, alexis and some some cars, and it's like, everything is software in there.

It's like, so much softer, like even the dashboard is like a a digital display. And it's like and the car brakes automatically. And it's like you using all these detection systems and and it's like, you know, in the car, there's there, suffer in shoot in a even in aa. Ah, you know, coffee machine, their software, right? It's like software is everywhere. You can't escape it. So that's I see that continuing to grow.

And I see the field continue to grow because of that. But, yeah, I think eventually we're gonna have it more. Be just kind of a staple school, like everyone will be part of their job will be doing self development, right? Ah, would you say that you make decisions more from intuition? Or more from calculation soon. That's interesting. I think it depends on the type of decision, right? I'm definitely person who believes in falling with my falling.

My got going with my my beliefs, my instinct, knowing that, you know, like like I, I own the consequences of my actions, right? So I will. I will do what I feel is right. But at the same time, you know, there's there's definitely decisions where I spent a lot of time in analysis, trying, trying to figure it out, right? Eso so it depends on what kind of decision it isthe, right? So I'd say a lot for a lot of content on my youtube channel.

For instance, I go with intuition. I go with my gut like this is what I want to talk about. This is what I want to say. All right, I'm not calculating what's gonna get me those views, the most subscribers, okay? And there's an argument to say that if I did, that would be better. But but, you know, but that's what I'm trying to do, really with that. But then there's there's other decisions, like like I was just just now I was looking at should at least the car buy a car, you know, and write it off with the business.

And I'm going to analyze the hill out of that to figure out that because it's it's a it's a numerical decision, so catch it. Wins. New miracle. It's obvious. Yep. So on your channel, you give advice to men and speak about gender differences through books you've read and personal experience and as a mail myself, I appreciate your openness on the subject, especially considering how tense, I guess, is the right word.

I find the atmosphere to be. So do you ever question is do you ever face backlash for the things that you say and how do you deal with it? You know, I I haven't really faced much backlash, to be honest with you. I mean, there there was someone I think of when I first started talking about some of these topics. But but one of the things I was talking, I was just talking about this with a friend. Is this idea if you've ever read the book anti fragile, really good book if you haven't read that, but I try to be anti fragile.

So in one of things is like and I think I did a video on this before we was talking about, you know, you've got that one friend that gets away with all kinds of shit, because that's just joe joe was, you know, he says that kind of stuff, and it's like, you kind of want to be that guy, right? You don't want to be this totally straight laced guy that as soon as you like, make one mistake, everyone crucify eyes, you and your right, so it's really hard.

Like if someone were to try and say, well, john is a sexist, racist pig. People say, ah, that's yeah, I guess you could say that like, there's nothing I could say that come out of them out. There would be a shock right to someone like there was a well, john says a lot of extreme kind of crazy stuff, right? So you know, I definitely, like, don't view myself as a sexist racist, you know, whatever. But you know, I but other some people do it fine.

I don't care because I'm unfiltered and and because I'm unfiltered, I'm sort of immune, right? And, you know, I hate to draw the comparison because it always create some kind of like like I feel like it. It creates a bias and someone. But i'll just say, you know, proof preface it like this by saying, love him or hate him, trump kind of did the same, right? But he kind of proving that, right? Like he got away with the most, you know, the most crazy shit, right?

That that would have sunk anyone else in the world. But the reason why is because he didn't make a big deal of it. He was pretty, like, open out there like there wasn't anything that was really like a big skeleton, like it was expected from him. And so so, you know that I think that that's the thing is it's like if you try and hide shit and you're not genuine, you're not authentic. And you're trying to present this like image of yourself, as, you know, politically correct.

And pearl john. Hello. You still there? Yeah, I'm there. Sorry about that. But if you try to present this image of yourself of being pristine, not having a dark side, never making a mistake, and then you and then you have up your you're going to get crucified, right? And so but but if you're not the time you know that, then it's not a problem. So again, I'm not saying that no one ever gets upset and post nasty stuff.

Of course, they d'oh it's me, but but but at the same time, I think that you know it the way, because I'm constantly putting stuff out there. It's it's it makes it so that s o I'm able to do that. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. You're very open and honest about all the, uh, about everything. So it it makes it so that it doesn't seem like you're trying to hide something. And, uh, you articulate better than I can summarize this, but well said, um, so we've got just a few minutes left here.

John and I got a few more questions to ask. So, sir, regarding the invention of the internet and its prevalence in all of our lives as a medium in an environment. What is number one? Your favorite service? And number two you're most hated. This service. The internet does for you john sambas. My, my favorite protocol is actually telling that from back in the back, in the mud dates on the same play the mud.

But the favorite service that the inner provides got, um, or that that's necessarily exact service, as in, like a software service or something. But just like a good thing, you know, a good thing, yeah. I mean, I suppose it's just the accessibility of information, right? Anything I want to know anything I want to learn. I can just type a google search and I can get the answer. That's that's something that I think we take for granted, right?

Like we just have this. It's almost like we've got this infinite brain that we're carrying with us in our phones and our pockets, right? And we can ask any question and, you know, just about anything we can fight is it's like, you know, again, i'll draw back to the matrix, right? You know the part, marie, he liked downloads thing is like, I know kung fu, right? It's like we have that ability. We could actually like google something and find it on youtube, you know, and and find out anything that we want to know how to do any kind of ability wantto learn how to program wantto learn whatever it is, you know, obviously it's not a cz instant as as neo got it, but but it's right there.

So I think that's not what I would say is the biggest benefit that I that I that I see from the internet right now, and the biggest disservice that you I don't like, assist the constant interruption and and the the constant like flow of data that it makes it hard to focus right. There's so many things so much that that's coming in, especially with, you know, our social media. I'd say social media in general, right?

It's just there's a lot of emotional like you don't even realize the emotional drainage told that it takes on you when you go through your facebook feed or twitter and the time that you waste and so much of life that is wasted and sucked out of you. It's like news in newspapers were a real big waste of time before the internet on. Now it's just mohr just maura omar. Like all that time that you spend getting upset, argue online.

All these things could be used for a productive purpose, but it gets sucked from us. Help. I agree with that. Okay. Last question. If you ruler of the world, what would you do on your first day? Wow. That is interesting. Well, ruler of the world. Wow. I don't know exactly. I mean, okay, so I tend to lean libertarian, right? So I kind of you know, maybe I would, you know, abolish all law a law total lawlessness for john sound this move.

Move, teo. Teo ah. Libertarian. Like, let people governor manage themselves tryingto figure out yeah, I don't know that's that's kind of a tough one, because I would say though, like, even though it's my deal, I don't know if I don't know if you could just, like, survive if the world were survive, if you just suddenly had anarchy, right? There has to be a gradual type of of thing where the system self.

So I think the systems would balance themselves, but it might be quite a violent, balancing out period, so maybe that wouldn't be the best thing. Best thing to do? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I have a really good answer for that. That's ah, that's a very deep question to think about. What? What? What would you do? Well, it probably writes and code to automate the gradual transition. Very god. Set the wheels in motion.

Set the wheels in motion a total anarchy and you'd retire to your california bunker, if all things if all hell broke loose. Yeah. There we go. Awesome. Well, john, we're out time. Thank you so much for your time. And thanks for all that you do. And i'll see you around, man. Yeah, yeah, no problem. All right,.