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Caleb Salyer Interview

For me, Caleb is probably one of the easiest people in the world to talk to, which is why this is my longest interview so far. We met at Shakes and he was my roommate at one time but moved to KC on to bigger and better things. We still stay in contact bouncing ideas off of each other quite regularly. It's always a pleasure when I get to interview someone interesting who is also a good friend. Thanks Caleb!

Recorded on 2016-11-29

Speakers: Caleb Salyer and Joseph Weidinger

Will it be awesome if I just breathed into the microphone this whole interview? We'll make sure that everyone knew that you were alive. That made no sense. Um I always begin the interview with, um okay. Um are you all right? Caleb stallion. I met you when I started working. Shakes you work in house. I was a driver. I feel like the first thing we have really talked about was sour dough bread when you brought in your starter.

And I thought you're doing it all wrong with their haircut. Airtight container. You weren't wrong. I learned a lot from you, though. As far as the bread making goes, I don't even remember what I where I learned what I learned, but probably just write somewhere. But anyways, we became roommates and eventually became angy and then got job little later. Boulevard burying company car start boulevard brewery in kansas city boulevard brewing company is the was a correction.

Actual name? Yeah. Okay. Anyways, you're one of my favorite roommates. I will say it was so easy to get along with you, and then and now. And so anyways, I enjoy each time we get to hang out, and I'm going to enjoy this interview to. So the first question is, what's the best thing for human being? What is the best thing for a human being besides oxygen, water and food or whatever, preferably best thing for a human being.

It's probably other human beings, right? We are social creature. I could exit jai's about this, but I don't have a lot of strong feelings on what our purpose is here, necessarily. I think it's a waste of time. Almost think too much about what? What is the best thing for a human being or having that idealised kind of outlook? I used to have a very idealistic outlook, and it just caused nothing but frustration and just a lot of angst and anger.

So I learned couple years ago that just the less you care about a lot of stuff, the happy you are happier. You are with certain things. I mean, I still feel strongly about a lot of things, but like big political issues and like things going on in third world countries, they're important. And it's sad that they're suffering out there. There's all these things that are happening while we have such a cushy lifestyle, you know?

But then we have all this suffering that goes on kind of beneath the surface. Ah, whereas a lot of the suffering, we worry a lot about the suffering. That's that's ah, like just really loud suffering, you know, like terrorism and, you know, famine and war and stuff like that. The loud suffering is what we're focused on, but I think the quiet suffering is much more of an issue. So maybe the best thing for humans would be empathy.

You know, awareness of others suffering not just the ones that air, you know, way feel like we've we've we've quenched that need for empathy and need toe kind of, you know, care about things by doing our like, social justice stuff on social media, that internet activism that so worthless or by just texting a number to give ten dollars to the red cross or something like that. It's taken a lot of the the the reward.

I think that's what humans need his reward and like empathy, you know, if we have this need to feel like we care, right? So I fight in interview. One moment, I'm just rambling like crazy. Now I could go all day. It sounds like you're still conflict there. Sounds it's not. I don't think you're dealing with the conflict, but you're acknowledging the conflict that we all feel. Maybe. But you say, ah, you say in part, that what makes what you on the court years ago with it being happy is not caring.

And then but you're just you're also seeing, like, a same time. The best thing for human being is. Reaching out or feeling empathy or, um, yeah, but like I said, I think we're doing that for ourselves a lot of the time, more than because we have this need that we need to fulfil within us, which kind of just goes to like the human condition, like, what does it mean to be human? Do we have this purpose like these?

These instincts, this instinctual need toe, you know, feel other people's suffering, which, if you don't do that, you know, we consider you like a psychopath and that need to feel that suffering, I think is I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with this. It's such an open ended question that I feel like I know what were you asking, though? But I know I like how you said the best thing for human being is other human beings.

And he also said, maybe empathy, too. But you're also being cost by using the word empathy because there's only so much. Ah, because feeling empathy helps us. But you also acknowledge that it only goes so far and actually doing something. And there's only because there's only so much that can be done by one person in this huge world or aware of so many problems that we can't fix by ourselves. Right? And I think that's you know, that's because we have, like, an objective need teo teo to fix something or teo, you know, create a better we see suffering or we see anything bad, and we just think it all should be good.

But you know, there's no way that's possible. It's not. It's not possible to make a utopia. It's not possible to alleviate all suffering. That doesn't mean you shouldn't help people, but it's it's not worth wasting your happiness on. And that's what I did for a lot of time. Like I was just frustrated with I grew up, you know, in the good christian household, thinking that, you know, the world's going to be people are gonna want to live like jesus, right?

And then you start to, like, become an adult and come of age and you see that, no, it's not the way it works and and you think like, no, it's just a z z is like objectively looking at it and being like, no, we need to, you know, not turning the other while turning the other cheek that you know will alleviate violence. But you're never going to get violence alleviated completely. And so it's like you do your part.

But that's all you khun d'oh on and I'm still trying to find out what my part is. I guess. Good answer. So is human progress, eyes, human progress, cyclical or cumulative, would you say? Both I would say both. I mean, I think, in short terms, thinking in like, short eras, it's very cyclical, like you can see a lot of like, you know, dictator's pop up here and there, and then you see a lot of the same thing's happening that have happened, you know, thousands of years ago, people of you know, you see people comparing trump's rise to power to like music, mussolini's that nationalism kind of thing.

And yes, so that part of it's cyclical. But I think in the grand scale of things, it's definitely linear, you know, its linear progress. Ah, because I mean, well, if see, I don't even I would almost plead the fifth on that question. Because is what we have today. Progress from what we had to two thousand years ago or before the grey area progresses. Unopened iniquity. I mean, technologically. It's obviously not progress, but I don't know.

But I don't know if I believe that technology is progress. Right? I think you know, I look a I like tea. I like the way the army is. Think about it. You know, they they're lewd ites. We consider them lewd. I'ts just because there's been so much progress quote unquote in the last year, one hundred fifty years, technologically. And so they have this policy, though, that they will accept technology and technological advances.

But they wait for them, tio. They give it a period. They want to see what effect it has on society rather than just accepting. Every new thing is good. They want to see how it affects them, and then they might accept it. So I think that would be a much better policy tohave. And we're starting to see the effects of, like, you know, over over prescribing drugs and stuff to children. You got this a t h d generation.

That has pretty much been given government meth for the last, you know, like twenty years of their life and people our age, basically, yeah, yeah, and it's like when I was in college, everybody was on adderall. You know, before a test. They were people are still on, and I didn't know personally anything about it just because being sheltered or whatever. I used to be so mad in my spanish class because and could I score college in college because the tests were so hard because you had to do so much and, you know, forty five minutes and I was really bad at doing like, the creative writing parts because I'm a guy that has to, like, edit things a million times to get him to sound the way I want.

Teo and I wasn't that good at just like spinning a bunch of sentences under the sentences onto the paper that I knew weren't that good because I wasn't that good at spanish yet. But everybody else in my class, they were all, you know, taking adderall before the tests, and I just I don't know if it gave them any advantage. I imagine it probably did cause, you know, focusing is hard. But I just was so frustrated with that all the time, and I just thought it was such an unfair system.

Well, and I mean, looking around everything that's technological and people, people that except the technology quickly ten had an advantage. I mean, people who and, of course, advances subject of here. But but if you don't have a cell phone, your disadvantage in in our modern society, I mean, I feel disadvantage sometimes because I don't have a facebook, you know, right? But you don't have these things.

But then look at the amish or something like this. You know, it would be much more difficult for them to excel in in this society. We are society, right? Yeah. So they have to mooch off everybody. They're always getting rides. They're using their neighbors phones all the time, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, so it definitely puts him at a disadvantage. I feel like it. And then I was I was watching this video of a cochlear implants.

People who can't even hear me that day. Yeah, they send you a video that yes, yes, I did not watch it tint. You know, I just texted you back about that one of my friends had, but I think it's interesting because people who don't want to watch a disgusting video of someone getting like to put in their ears yeah, is very graphic. But I just find it interesting because you watch birth videos is no. Well, I watched my own birthday.

That's because my mom records, uh, um, I mean, from it was from him, you know, a pg angle self right, but anyways with the but thiss care. But with technology, I guess I just think that, you know, and someone mentioned i'll north is sure not but that people cochlear implants can hear better in a way. And I'm sure. And then I heard someone else say that it's not as good, but so but, you know, some day they will be really good and probably better than our natural going.

Well, maybe or build up, hear things that we came here I don't know. It's so imagine like if they made a bionic bionic eye or something, people without human. And so, yeah, people without that will be at this bench and people who don't accept the technology, our disadvantage by in its augmentation. I mean, there's a whole we could talk to ours about this one home, but, I mean, it's interesting, but I also think about culturally where you're talking about how it could be kind of concerning how fast people accept things, but also one of the greatest things about younger people that I've heard a lot of people say is that the the acceptance of the the pace at which they accept like transgender people or all these things without even thinking like oh, of course, they're thes person could be my friend.

What's wrong with you know there's no and ah, there's there's part of being young, I guess is that is that sort of there's less of I only noticed it's people aren't inhibited about your more accepting set anything of just anything alright well your hope in mind you're more open minded and that's because I guess because you probably haven't had enough time richie because you haven't had enough time tio you haven't had enough time to develop those those kind of personal traditions in those personal routines that get you so set in a certain mindset you know so I think if you talk to us when we're forty we would probably be a lot more closed minded just naturally than we are now teacher and I mean there's we're we're all averse to change obviously but you know it's like the smartphone's I didn't want a smartphone I didn't think I needed a computer in my pocket but now I have one because I had to you know it's the only thing you can get these days that's true and basically, and I feel like I'm it's not made my life easier at all.

I mean, yeah, it does have a gps, you know? So that's nice. I don't get lost anymore. But, you know, it makes life more entertaining, though. People don't know how to be bored anymore. You don't just you don't take in your environment as much any more. You don't know. I mean, there's so many conversations that could have been that we're probably, you know, killed instantly by someone checking their phone instead of, you know, just turned into the person next to write at the same time.

There are so many more conversations that you have people that you wouldn't otherwise have. For example, if I text someone and then text me back like that in there in a different state or country, whatever, that's a conversation that wouldn't be had. So it's like it enhances. It enhances interaction, but can limit interaction. Teo. And it's the same with with being a verse to change or accepting. Change is like they just have ups and downs and everything comes with consequences, which can be good and bad or something like this.

Yeah, yeah, I mean everything has pros and cons. Pros and cons. It's all everything is grey. Nothing is black, nothing is white. Everything is gray. I firmly believe that. And so, yes, it's it's definitely hard to judge whether the pros are outweighing the cons, you know. And on a it's just hard to look at things in a at a grand scale in general, like to see what effect this actually has had on society because our life spans aren't even really long enough to test it.

Right. So the long and short of it is sort of this question is that human progresses and everything it repeats and, you know, history repeats itself. But in the long term, there are a lot of factors that that's silly. Grow accumulate. Another question I would have is why do we have this? This instinct for progress? Like, what part of our makeup isn't just like it wasn't just like, you know. Oh, this is fine.

You know, we're living here. What about? I mean, I guess it was the bad things that happened. That's what make you want progress, right? That's what progress is trying to alleviate whatever people dying that people dying from cancer. You know, all of those vaccines, those air considered progress, so because we could easily say, like, oh, the native americans, they were fine, you know. I mean, sure, they're average life span was probably forty years old or something like that were pretty low.

But I imagine that their quality of life was maybe a little higher. So are you tryingto also say like the what makes us different from other animals? Other animals? They're not trying to change their environment, that little bar life, they just exist. They survive. And there were different. They just to it, they just adapt. See, we've we've gotten to the point where instead of adapting to the environment, the environment must adapt to us because we have so much technological power over environment, technological or whatever you want, you and that's, you know, like all goes back to the agricultural revolution and everything in tool building and this is the dave matthews songs.

All right, so what is that? The next question? What's your favorite, dave matthews. But in their day, man, you know, any day meant, you know, you know which one's my favorite? That one you don't like? Remember that one? It's like, baby or something like that american baby. I don't remember. I hope you stay american, baby. I don't think so. Now it's that one. Remember? We went through a list of dave matthews songs just to figure out which song it was that I heard on the radio.

And I was like, oh, I kind of actually like that song and then us. And then you were like, you like that song? Oh, crash into me? Yes, I think so. I think it's one of those memory, but you're very disappointed. And I took great satisfaction in that. Um okay. So let's talk about your your life earlier life, maybe for a little bit. What? It's your released memory. Probably hiding behind the couch while jurassic park was on.

And that velociraptor seen man. And I've had this recurring dream ever since. I was, like, three years old, in which I guess is when this happened. Where? You know, the t rex? I comes into the window. You've never seen the movie, have you? Let it be known just joseph has never seen jurassic park. I feel like I've never seen a movie. But anyway, anyway, there's this scene where this tyrannosaurus rex looks inside the house through the window at, you know, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Freaking terrifying. I used to have that dream all the time. Like it would show up in my window. And that was terrifying. But that one's one that really sticks. I also remember going to colorado sometime when I was three. And I just remember seeing like, streams and stuff. And then there's also I remember watching nascar like on my dad's lap. Yeah, dude. Ah, nineteen ninety three. That was, ah, jeff gordon's first full rookie season.

Arabia's ninety two. Remember that, and that's why I've always been a lifelong jeff gordon, but jeff corn recently retired. Right now he's out is that you got to race some racist. He's watched jeff gordon's entire career. Yes, thie. Earliest memories that you have involved jeff gordon's first career debuts. Yeah, he has no idea how much of my mind he takes out. Um who were your earliest role models within your immediate family?

And how did they affect or influence you? Oh, probably my cousin who was my age. We influenced each other a lot. We're best brose back in the day. Ah, yeah, him and I, we just did everything together. He was my because he's the same age, is you? Yeah. He's six months older than me. Does he feel like an older cousin to you? Or is you feel? I feel like we're the same age we went to college together to donora allah.

And we just always been good buddies. I don't really talk to him that much. Even though I'm in kansas city now, I don't really ever see him, but when we get back together for family gatherings and stuff, it's always just like picking up where you left it up. Just talking, talking, talking. Um, how did he affect you? Which is just kind of, you know, like kind of that competitive nature of young boys where, like, we were always trying to kind of be better than each other.

And I just remember whenever I started getting better than him at certain things because he used to always be better than me running faster than me, you know, it could always like hit the ball farther than me. And I was always scrawny and kind of a late bloomer, so yeah, and then I finally started overtaking him and prowess. I hope he's not listening to this. But for a little while, I did. Because he was a big, big kid.

But then he had this growth spurt and he got handsomer than me, like, taller than me and more athletic than man. Yeah, he was definitely took over them. But it's not like we're in a big competition throughout our lives or anything like that. It was just like, you know, that's what boys do, right? See him? My grandma. She's just the most hostile grandma doing. She's doing great. Linens are went up to her house.

The last what was it? I guess it was like wednesday through wednesday and thursday. I was up there for thanksgiving, and yeah, she's doing good. She's getting old eighty five, you know, but still vital is that I will say that I mentioned the first memory of being sour dough. Uh, you're looking at your sour doughs start or something. When you brought in one day, I still remember exactly you have, you know, when you came in, but I also, if that was the first memory of us talking back when we were here because I just retired to a swell.

The second one must have been you talking about. Or if that was the first eyebrow raising moment. Who, um, the second eyebrow raising moment was when you were talking about your grandma? Uh, yeah, after I was after my bike accident. Yeah, and I had spent, like, a week and a half up there because I couldn't do anything else. Right on dh. Yeah, and that's just that's just said nothing about how, like talking it was just stuck out because, well, sounded like that was an interest.

Best friend here is like I couldn't decide. If you want to tell me she was your grandma, I would have thought that she was like you're you're the best high school for anybody and stuff and then it was just a person I just admire incredibly and yeah the reason I was gushing about her then to because that's whenever she started having real bad macular degeneration and so she couldn't see is well and they were starting to talk about like well when we're gonna have to do because she's probably not going to be able to be totally independent for too much longer so yeah, I was like trying to get my family to, like, let me live up there.

You know, it's like, now just let me do this much rather keeper independent for a little longer. And I'm not doing anything important right now, career wise, so but then it really paying out? She's still living alone, though, so it's a way had to take the car away, but that's okay. S oh, who were your biggest role models outside of your family when you were growing up? Mmm. This is a interesting question.

Yeah. I mean, really thinking about it like I grew up in a pretty solitary upbringing, you know, living out in the country. Booneville, for therein. Drill. Yeah, living out in the country. It's not like they were like I can't think of like any people. I mean, there's been a few teachers, you know, that we're really big role models. But I don't know. I don't really no, if I could just name like one person who I like, always looked up to.

I don't know who that would be. Maybe like ah, I don't know. It's not like there was like some, like guys from church or anything that, like, had a big influence on my life. Um I will say, when I was sixteen, I went to the missouri scholars academy and I met a lot of the people that were, like, working that, you know, that teachers there, the the ira's the resident assistance for the dorms and stuff. They were there.

They were all just like the coolest people I had ever known. And they were just feeding me all these new ideas that I had never heard in my simple, you know, private school upbringing. No, it's a private school. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And booneville now, this was in lone l'm missouri, which is a little township of ninety three. People doesn't even have a gas station. Hardly even has. Ah, the only thing that the only commerce that goes on in low now that I know of is thie can't feed store.

And there's a soda machine across the school street from the school that we used to go to. But yeah, so is the age range. Is this this was grades one through eight. I only stayed there till seventh grade, and I actually transferred out the first couple weeks of seventh grade. Ah, and, yeah. There was a two room schoolhouse there were thirty people in the school from creates one through eight. And, ah, there were two teachers.

Wow. Yeah. And then you came to boonville and went to a public high school. Yeah, and that was really, like, big deal for me emotionally and just I mean, I loved it because I got to be around friends, like, have, like, friends that air other people my age. They're like boys. I was the only boy in this in the entire class, do you think? But being the only boy in this was this a religious school, by the way?

Yeah, I was a lutheran school association. Do you think being the only boy effective you, or do you think it because for better, for worse or whatever, like distinct personality traits or didn't no effect at all? I don't think so. I mean, I was the only boy for like, the last two years because one of the other guys that transfer out gone to public school and do well and that's kind of what made me decide to do it.

So it's close to boonville. I think it affected me a little bit. I kind of felt I don't know. I kind of felt, you know, like it was me against the world with my class a little bit. And so it kind of made me more probably introverted, I think. But that's just the way nature of that upbringing in general. I think like it was so individual based, like everybody in class was working out of the same math book.

But everybody was on a different page. All right. You know, that's a good metaphor for something. I don't know what yet. But everybody's reading the same book, but we're all on different pages. It is. That sounds very good. Bye. Profound. We'll have tto ascribe meaning to that. Not a sound bite for it now too. There you go. Well, beer you're drinking, by the way, that tire fat tire. Just because the not there's anything wrong with that tire.

Nothing against new belgium. They're great bravery, but yeah, the pickings were pretty slim over there on the register. Valerie valerie said she could get me a beer over here, but I was like, now I'm going play the rules like everybody else. Such a communist. Just kidding. No, I am. I know. So were you raised a particular religion? And if so, are you still practicing methodist united methodist? Not like evangelical.

You know, I hate methodist. It's like the good method. I hate methodist. I don't know. Well, there's there's, like the evangelical methodists, which are evangelical anything. I mean, are there more? Not necessarily hate, but more in your face. The southern methodists. You know where it's kind of. They're still. You know, small earth creationists are short. What is it? They think that the earth is only six thousand years old and they don't want lesbians to preach to them.

Right? The my methodist church does have lesbian pastors. And does you know it was your pastor? Lesbian? No. Was your pastor female? No, but my aunt is the past year, and that's one of you is okay, but she's not lesbian. Now, now, now. Just wanted clear. Um, the it was united methodist church in boonville. It was a pretty mean. There's, like, a hundred people in the congregation. You know, that's very small. One hundred families, one hundred people, hundred people.

Well, well, they weren't catholic, dude. But it was yeah, it's pretty small, but that was just because it was small town. But it's not that big of a town. Catholic church was huge, but, um, yeah, I definitely think that probably had a lot more to do with my upbringing than anything. Was the church just like I took that shit? Seriously? You were really religious growing up. Not like crazy religious. Like I was reading the bible every night before I went to bed or anything like that, or I didn't.

It's not like I will got up and wanted to go to church. But I thought about those things a lot like heaven and hell. And I can still remember there would be nights where I just couldn't go to sleep. I would just be crying in my bed because I was scared. I was going to go to hell. And you're in grade school or high school. This was when I was, like, six years old. Well, I was terrified of that. And were your parents aware of this?

No, I don't think so. But is the method search that you? I mean, for long as I can remember, methodism is not as fiery as, for example, that toe baptists. It's not like fire and brimstone where they're like at all, really. If you don't go to church, you're going straight to hell. So what put these thoughts in your brain or what made you think that? I mean, it was just so pervasive. It was so pervasive in my life because first of all, you know, we'd go church on sundays and everything.

But then also, I was going to religious school every week. So all the books were, you know, in doctor united with all this, well, this religious stuff, like a lot of them word story or the word problems in math would be about, you know, christian shit, right? And be like, god has has forty three centers that he's thinking about going to hell. And then there's. And then there was also I mean, obviously, you know, the the science textbooks were a joke for the most part, and ah, yeah, I had to re learn a lot of things after that, but I know that's what made me such like a, you know, they say there's those militant atheists, the ones that air like they're not like, you know, militant.

But they they don't have nice things to say about christians. And I want them all in the one big barrel. And they're just like, this is so stupid. Why does anybody believe that? I used to be like that. When? What age? What age like sixteen. Sixteen was when I realized I didn't believe in god. I still don't believe in god. I don't think there's a god up there. I don't think so. Any kind of being your heaven or hell.

But I still believe I still like to go to church like I still singing hymns with people that are all just like in the same mind state is you and just everyone's and feeling great. And I don't like you. But I know you like to go to the church to scout out future wife, future wives, life material. Now that's one place I never really thought of looking, actually. Sh mostly because there's no women in church under the age of like sixty anymore.

What? I don't believe that was just kidding. But that said, there's not many young people in church anymore. And so when I do go to church it's kind of weird. Yeah, like I'm always like the youngest person. They're the old ladies come up to you like I'm so happy you're here. Oh, yeah, I love it. I like going to church just because usually there's one old lady that will come up and be like you have such a beautiful singing voice.

Oh, my god. Thanks. Yeah, you go church in intensity. I went one time so far. So one time since april. Yeah, that's your church going, right? Currently? Yeah, not the best. But anyway, that said, like, I still consider myself a methodist. I still believe in most of the same stuff they believe. I mean, I definitely don't believe everything they believe. But if you do believe everything you believe there they believe that's written out for you to believe.

You're obviously not even thinking for yourself. So whatever it doesn't mean anything but I yeah, I just like I believe in the holy spirit. You know, I believe that there is like this this, like consciousness, consciousness, just the fact that we all can think connects us. And that's something because the only reason that we are religious is because we can think, you know, cats aren't religious religions, religions, obviously just a construct of thought.

And so, yeah, something about that consciousness. So you believe they're self elected off? Awareness is like the holy spirit to me. The fact that we're aware of our our condition, you know, aware of the human condition or where are each individual thing? That's what religion comes from. It's just being aware of the human condition going back to thinking about progress, always wanting to strive towards paradise, you know, used to people.

I think that religion started out. People were just accepting, you know, the fact that this world sucks and it was made to be that way. So just accept it as it is, and then you'll go somewhere better afterward. In other words, that's how people accepted. It was a coping mechanism. Hoping. Yeah, but it was also ah. Eh? I guess you could say it was also kind of an acknowledgement that we do have this one thing all in common.

You know that we all do have this condition. Condition? Yeah. Or the struggle or stroke. Yeah, whatever it is. And I think that's that's what religion is to me. I think every legitimate religion is the same. It's just different iterations of the same, like mechanisms. You know, let's get away putting in. So so yeah, I still definitely consider myself religious. I still consider myself a christian, in fact, because, you know, I do respect pretty much everything that jesus supposedly did.

And I think reading reading about his life can't really do anything bad to you. I think that that's what that's what made me so mad about the church in the first place, whenever I became an atheist, was that nobody was living. Nobody was walking the walk. They're all just talking the talk. You know, nobody was actually and this was also, like, during the height of, like, the bush wars and everything. And I'm just like, now, like, if we would just let these people be, maybe they wouldn't have this need to come kill us, right?

But instead we're saying like, oh, they hate our freedoms in stuff, you know? And then we it's also like we it's the same religion, you know? But but, yeah, that was silly. And yeah, that's that's one of the big things. I went to a seminar whenever I was at the missouri scholars academy and it was a islamic scholar, and she she put up a bunch of quotes that were obviously from some sacred text. And she was like, all right, I want you guys to tell me what these quotes are from, and they were just like some of the most horrendous things in the world just talking about like, god approved genocide and lots of stuff from deuteronomy and numbers, and some of it was from the korean, but everyone was like, oh, it's all from the korean because these are all terrorists right on, because we're all sixteen year old kids that have been fed the bush narrative, you know?

Right? And then she she, like, just started showing you that oh, no. This is due to rana me. This is numbers. This is this is your religion. And then I started like reading those books more. And was that a big turning point in your life? Going to missouri scholars academy? No. Yeah, coming back with this new, um, like, were you an atheist before? No. No. So that was a singular moment where you started questioning that.

And then, yeah, there was ah ah, sweet mate that I had there that would ask me a lot of really hard questions, right? And that definitely you asked me some questions I couldn't answer, and it just made me think about things. So I think I definitely had calling calling hughes, he definitely had a big, big impact on it. And now you go like, search colin on the internet or something and find out he's like some christian deacon or past or something.

Really? He's probably some zip hippies in master, something like that. Okay, so would you say that you pursue now currently more happiness or more meaning more happiness or more meaning happiness? By far, they used to be meaning. But like I said, I just stopped caring about that kind of I felt like no, no, I used to always say that I used to be get really frustrated and argue with my ex girlfriend a lot about like she would be like, I just can't eat when she was your girlfriend.

Oh, yeah, she would be like, why can't you be happy? And I was like, well, i'll be happy when I'm satisfied when exactly. Well, what did it mean? It meant that I wanted to see, you know, I wanted this change to happen in the world, and I was like I would be suffering until I right until I was able to see that change. And then I realized that's never gonna happen. So it's like a waste of time. It might happen, and he's still like, you know, support change.

But it's not worth it. It's not necessary for your happiness. Happiness is just a state of mind. I used to think it had to be caused by something, you know, that you had to. Something had changed. You had to work towards the change and it had to be accomplishing everything succeeds and well, I just wanted it. I get really frustrated when I think there's a way that things should be b and work being in the world when I think there's a way things should be.

That makes sense to me, and it's not that way. I don't understand why it's not that way, and I don't understand why more people don't understand that it's not that way. Right? And why it should be that way. That really frustrated me, and that used to be, like, a big cause of a lot of my grief. But I don't know. Then I just stopped caring about it too much and got way happy here, right? That's kind of interesting, though.

Like, how do you stop caring about something? Suddenly, was this a sudden thing or gradual thing? It was a gradual thing. It was going through a couple of elections. You know, the first couple of elections that I voted in, I was like, all right, we're going to make changes and blah, blah, blah. And I was toast is in two thousand eight. Yeah, two thousand eight. I was a big ron paul supporters. Really? I still ended up voting for barack obama.

Um, not that I really wanted to. I just wanted teo. See that? See, some change, right? And but I was huge. Ron paul, supporter. I don't believe any of the reasons anymore that I thought ron paul should be be put in the office. But you know it it really I wanted to be a part of some like movement, and that was a movement, right? And then you're saying that in going and seeing the whole world kind of or everybody look about this decision will not change.

And then what change happens, or what like this was a gradual transition into you not caring? Is that what you're saying? Like that was the beginning. It wasn't more of like. These things. Eventually, it just showed me why I shouldn't care as much. So. I don't know. I did a lot of arguing on the internet in two thousand ten. This is part of the reason I actually quit facebook, right? That's what you said last night.

Yeah, it was just because I was tired of arguing on the internet about the healthcare thing, and I just didn't understand why people didn't want everybody to have healthcare, right? That was so stupid. So, yeah, after that, just like I'm done arguing about this, right? But it was not only done arguing about this, but it's just kind of pushed you into a direction we're more about. Like, I don't care about this.

We'll hear about yeah, I just pushed me trying to be a point where I was just like, this isn't worth it. Maybe this is what I got so enraged by these silly things, like it was like, these are big, important issues, but it's still not worth it like so. But that was important and I was really important. Or that was important for you to finally just accept and not worry about it about how things was, you know, yeah, argue that it's also like like dropping out of college for instance, that gave me kind of a lot of guilt, and I felt like I was disappointing my parents for a few years after that.

And only recently have I really been able to kind of just embrace and be like I dropped out. What? You know, it's like I just got tired of answering that question, you know, like, oh, you were in columbia. Did you go to emu? What'd you study? What was your degree? And I was like, I started this for a little while. Tio pablo block. And so, yeah, just answering that question in time. And now we're just finally starting to get hopefully to the age.

Now, where will stop asking us that stupid? I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. Yeah, I love it when people are like, they come to me like I thought you lived in l. A yeah. Hey, I got to go. The bathroom can deposit for a sec. All right, we're positive, all right? Grampus tiny bladder. Okay, so we're back. Kate was pouring a beer. I know what it was. A mother's winter grind. My favorite coffee stout of all time.

Um, no, I don't work for boulevard brewing. It's yeah, it actually tastes like coffee, and it's awesome. Anyway, we're talking about happiness. Yeah. This is brought to you by mothers want their grand grand. Um, right. Having this here's something I want to ask you. Uh, here's a grandpa questions. Ah, your nickname is grand fall, actually. Yeah. Why did you get the name grandpa again? That was shakespeare's thing.

This kind of ties? Yeah, it kind of ties in tow, me being frustrated with things when they're not exactly the way I think they should be, which has changed, or you still like this in the current, you know, like, there's one thing you don't know that your logic has been a big part of my change of just, like, not carrying about it. And, ah, when is this change happened? That look over the past five years or just the past five years?

Probably. Really. Whenever I started around the time I started living with you, probably. That's whenever I stopped. Yeah, I started just so your new job, they don't call you grant. They wouldn't come up with the nickname gregor. But anyway, the reason I would be called grandpa was because, you know, like, anytime that there would be something that's not the way I wanted to be, I would just kind of like ram around about it a little bit.

And they just started calling me grandpa because I sounded like an old man. So not much more to it than that. So can anger be a productive emotion? Speaking of luke, there's luke. That's funny. It's funny. Um, can a productive emotion. Yeah, maybe so. I mean, you know, you know, you don't want to. You don't want to totally stop carrying. You don't wantto I haven't been a very angry and quite some. Well, I do work with some people that frustrate me sometimes.

So I have been angry, right? Well, there's a sort of dated a frustration that anyone experiences, but and there's a bigger, you know, being frustrated all the time and angry all the time in the world. But, you know, I don't I don't feel like I get mad anymore, really. Hardly at all. And I think that's part of maybe because I've been descents. It ties to so much of this shit, like, you know, every other day, that every other day, there's some like shooting going on or something.

And it's like, if you actually got mad about these things there, actually were surprised by them. You would just be pissed off and confused all the time, you know? Yeah, you can't it's like zen. He used to always talk to me like, man, did you hear about that cop shooting that like, kids? Baba blind. I'm like yeah, I mean, I mean, I probably did hear about it, but any more I'm just like which one you know, and it doesn't.

We've we've become so desensitized to it by this media cycle in that we have. And that's talking about another going back to like the progress thing and knowing what effect the that the technology that we use for whatever has on our sense of society, like, think about. I think the biggest wild card is twenty four hour news cycle. The fact that that people, these these news media companies, they have to keep the content ruling at all hours of the day.

Right? But there's this deep seated trust in the media. Are there had been a deep seated trust in the media before cable news came around and back whenever it was all like network news. And like tom brokaw, wallets are conquering walter cronkite. Yeah, all these old men, you know, white men smoking our cigarettes and telling you about, you know, the last battle in the war to four hundred people died in vietnam, less and and so we trust them so much.

But now it's become so privatized that, you know, it's just the profit. It's all about the money. And so you have the headlines. And so you have these competing companies. He's competing, you know, outlets that like fox news, it pretty much makes its money off of saying the opposite of whatever, like msnbc says, regardless of how true any of that is, they just find a way to attack it and up in the right way so that it, you know, keeps there their base happy and watching well actually keeps him enraged.

That's a thing, fox news. It's all about just rage, like my dad used to watch it so much, and I used to watch it, too, because I was just around it all the time. And like rush limbaugh or any of those, yeah, my dad loved that. Dad used to be kind of angry looking. Does your dad still like it or is he, like, still uses? He still watches fox news, but he is millet out a lot. Yeah, my dad has to. My dad used to listen to rush all the time and then as us kids got like, this is so ridiculous and and because it's like, the more the more people attack you, the more the more ridiculous you.

Because, like trump, you know, it's like what he says is, is that this level in the middle somewhere, and then people start attacking him. And he like upsy any by saying more ridiculous things and it just becomes this like battle of the war. Or what's that arms race basically of just saying outrageous things and you know, but anyways, my dad usedto listen to russia all the time. But now he's like russia's he's an entertainer, is that you?

Can be ridiculous. He's entertainer in this one because even other members of my family, how much younger listen to rush or something in my dad's like older, and he's like, oh, russia's just entertainer. Yeah, and that's what my dad money. My dad used to say that about glenn back as well, and he really liked him on fox news. But had you have you heard what glenn beck has said recently? He's kind of started recanting everything he said before, back when everything had a show, he would just, like, stand up in front of, like, chalkboards and stuff and, like, write out all these things and just be like, I'm just asking questions here, just asking questions, which is his way of saying it.

I don't have any facts here. I don't have any facts, but, well, you know who's who's really on that show? Um, is bill reilly is the candies mean man? And I know I was given the o'reilly factor for kids when I was young. What's that mean? It's that book, the o'reilly. He's gotta book the o'reilly factor for kids. Yeah, it's a that's sound service. It's a conservative. And so he's so aggressively and anger angry and I on that.

That's whenever I started to have, like some dissonance between what I was experiencing in the world, like what I had been taught. I should believe like I was taught, you know, that, you know, love everybody, you know, turn the other cheek, all this stuff. And then you got bill o'reilly screaming in the other years a total juries, just like we need to get rid of all the gays, muslims and air abs. And then, like, yeah, I just hate hate, hate, hate, hate.

We gotta kill everybody, you know, that hates our freedoms. And that's just that's like, what is going on like this? Any sense. And so yeah. I mean, my dad have never seen eye tie off course, and he's you mean, ever since you were, like, sixteen? Yeah, but he's I don't know. It's so cool to see how much he's mellowed out like he works for. Does a lot of work for the habit, not habitat for humanity. Harp for house or whatever it's called.

Ah, harbour house. Harbour house. It's like a homeless shelter. Yeah. Homeless shelter kind of thing. Not the one here. There's one in bills will. Um, yeah. So he does a lot of work with them. And on every christmas I give him a cheque. Toe harbor houses. He's like the treasure of it. But good son now not the best one, but I yeah, I don't know. We've leave way. Haven't amiable relationship. We just don't talk about anything anymore.

Like hardly besides nascar, right? You know, that's why sports run, then I really like this because you like, during all the election. So it's happening already in the day after the election. You know, everyone's talking about oh, my god. Oh, my god. Thank you, toby. No direction home, bob dylan. I'm guessing you haven't seen that. They never. This is your second copy. I will for sure. Bringing back. Thank you.

Pretty good. When I like it, you've watched it. Martin scorsese. Yeah. Watch it. Well, I just if you don't watch films no, well, no. I'll watch stock or family. I watched films and but anyways, the the tvs all around shakespeares, for example, where nothing was being said about the election. And I'm like, that's strange. I mean, like, donald trump just got elected president. But this is this is hugely, this is huge news.

I mean, it's huge news when any present gets elected but special donald trump, because it was such a surprise. And now that he's running and I realize all the tvs are on sports channels and so, but they always are on sports generals, except that night before they during the election, they changed. One of the tv is to be seen them so they could see the election results point because, you know, because people want to watch it.

But anyways, I just I was interesting because, you know, it's so you know, like, you can't everyone can get me out of sports or love sports like, but people aren't going to, you know, you're not gonna turn off customers by putting our sports like no one's going to come. I don't I don't not go it shakespeare's because they because they just play raiders games or whatever. You know, like it's just it's so, well, the discourse, the discourse has become so toxic, you know, it's been this indoctrination of just hate us versus them, us versus them, us versus them, whereas it used to just be us.

You know, americans, you know, take, you don't have to agree with everything, but we can have a civil discourse. But anymore, the discourse has totally been thrown out the window because you have, you know, one media outlet on one side that's skewed to one end of the political spectrum. And then you have the other one on the other side that's skewed to another end of the political spectrum. And they're not communicating, just forces us.

They're just they're just, you know, you're hearing what you want to hear. That's all you hear, and that makes you feel safe. That makes you feel correct. But it doesn't give you that debate that that argument and I used to be super into arguing and debating things, you know, and coming up with good points and you know, always said having the last word, but I just stopped caring about that. It's just now worth it to try to change some people's minds anymore.

Someone will. It's harder to change people's minds these days. You know, it's hard to get people to admit that they're wrong. Well, that's what, brother jed. Brother joe. Yeah, the crazy guy that would have, like, the sign that says tells you all the reasons you're going to hell and yeah, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, people, people. I remember getting into an argument with somebody at rolla because of roland.

The kids had a heyday with them because everyone's an atheist roller really? Well, most kerala a lot. Yeah, his home base was columbia obvious. Yeah, he goes all around, but yeah, yeah, he came to roll over the way. Actually, a few years ago, I noticed I haven't heard about him, but yeah, but anyway, you know, he'd have a sign, and these kids would be out there just trying to, like, give them their best atheist.

And, um oh, you know, and I just I mean, I was still a militant atheist at that time, but just watching them just attack him, just kind of made me like, kind of sour about it. And so I one of the guys, that was just, like, kind of making fun of him. I was just like, dude, why are you in this argument? Do you think you're going to change his mind? I know he's not going to change your mind, but you're not going to change his mind either.

So why are you even doing this? You're obviously just doing it to make fun of them. And which is a coping thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know that. It's just like, well, being right is so important to everybody. Heard to a lot of people. But ignorance is the most powerful. I think there's a lot more power in ignorance than knowledge. And I think donald trump is one of the biggest examples of that of you mean using that to his advantage.

Yeah, but ignorance, the glorious thing about ignorance is you don't even know you're using it to your advantage. The advantage is that you don't know. You don't know anything. And so being ignorant about things like being ignorant and aware that you're ignorant is is one of my trying to say is being ignorant just mean being focused on something else while something else is going on its way. We're taking adderall on a test.

No, they're they're they're focused on one thing and ignorant. All the other things are going on. Well, that's that's one way of looking at the word. But what I'm saying ignorant. I'm saying like, you just don't know about something s o. You know, like, okay, like this saying ignorance is bliss. There's ah verse in ecclesiastes tease that says without a bible thing, yeah, it's one of the old testament. Go ahead, rich.

Thanks, man. It's one of the old testament things. It's actually my favorite book in the old testament. It's not like any of the other books. It's not like it just a bunch of stories or names or reasons why you should kill gay people. It's it's just a bunch of like wisdom, kind of proverbs or anything like that. But one of the one of the things in theirs with much power comes much with much wisdom comes much vexation and ah, with no income, sorrow.

I believe it's like, yeah, with much power or with much wisdom comes much vexation and with no income, sorrow or something like that, which means that the more you know, the more confused you are, right? Because and this is this is part of the condition that I've been talking about forever. Like where you were you I've spent so much time just learning things, just soaking up knowledge and things. And now I have this idea of like, oh, this is the way things should work and they don't work that way at all.

And so now I'm just confused and mad and yeah, so being ignorant like it's that's the key to happiness. Yeah, just being fucking that's one of the keys. I mean, someone also told me once that a lot of things air like, how comfortable are you with ambiguity? And, you know, you can either be ignorant too things, or you can be comfortable with the ambiguity of you know what you don't know or what you know or and it's like this god exist or something.

If if if you really need that answer, then you will learn more and still be confused. It's not something that may be knowable. Yeah, and a lot of these issues going on the world are so complex. Ah, it's not. It's so it's so hard to know in one way is to not even have a clue about it. I guess, um, in in other ways to just be totally comfortable with the ambiguity that that you know, you know, la, but your your you know that it's, um not something that can be understood who was anything like that and that comforts you.

Maybe. Yeah, well, I always tell, tell my friends or people I know who are like, you know, bitching about christians or being kind of those militant atheist. I'm just like, man, there's the thing is, they always say, like, why would you have faith the atheist do they're like no, faith is stupid. Faith is stupid. He species cynical of everything. You should need proof. You should need evidence. You should need all this.

And the only thing I have to say to that is as like a staunch atheist or like a really like, hard core science guy or whatever you believe that you have faith that everything is observable, that that there is an answer for everything you know, like where the big bang came from, which there is an answer to it. But it might not be knowable. And that's that's more important than anything I think is knowing what is being being aware of what is and isn't noble, right?

Acknowledging that well, the reason why I brought up religion was because, um, houston, I'm reading an interview of him once, and this goes into, like, changing people or getting through to people that are so hard to get through. And mohr increasingly is this way. And he said that, you know, he is such a he is up there in the speaker circle and so dynamic and in the same, you know, watching girls and short skirts walked by.

And then he will say something like, I don't know how the whore houses in this town stay open. You guys were going out for free. You know, that's one of the quotes I'm reading and stuck with me. And he says, you know, she'll like that all the time when he was here. I remember because I watched out watch him a few times, you know? Yeah, I think we all have just parviz rap, you know? But and he acknowledges that while people get up there and they are in his face as he is in their face, and they're disagreeing with him.

He believes firmly in his heart that at the end of the day they go home to their dorms and they think about what? What they're doing. All of this stuff they're sending about wrong, and then they eventually like that. That's his way of penetrating. He thinks he's actually still tripping him. Gil turns into or just in a broader way, just pick getting through to them like that's he because people ask him like, look, brother jamel, christian, too.

But but your way of going about this evangelical no evangelized evangelizing is so is is I don't think is effective, right? He said. No, no, no. I'm getting through to them and I'm getting I'm going right to the right to them and and, you know, penetrating all of the although, you know, the kevlar who of our modern age and that's how I do it. And I believe it. This effective, you know, like that was just his answer.

And I'm like, oh, that's he's probably whether changes or not, it's definitely true that he gets through because we're here, you know, like years we're talking about. We're talking about him because it's just going like true, right? But, you know, I mean, indians, like, why didn't that guy just like, get a twitter, something you ever trying out? Social media has its winter. We'll check. Oh, yeah, we should.

I hope it's just like, how do all the whorehouses stay open every like two hours, right? Yeah, it's ridiculous. But here's another question for grandpa. Okay, about old illness. The american indians in eastern culture respect their elders. Can you explain western cultures disdain for old age progress? I mean, that's quick progress is what it isthe. We look att old people like there stubborn, dumb and confused, you know, because they because they take too long to figure out how to use an iphone right where they you know, you can't drive in a certain way.

I mean, that's true. Like they are confused because the technology, like, if they they're literally ultimately confused on how to use an iphone, for example. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they've been used to, I mean, the phone. The regular home phone was around for what, like, one hundred years before cell phone started? Being coming really popular. And ah, so yeah, that was like a deep seated tradition. So I understand.

Like why they don't want to get cell phones or why the internet's a waste of time. But that's yeah. I mean, that's why it's because this thing's changed so fast that it's impossible to keep up with, and we're going to be the same thing very soon. I mean, we already are. I cannot figure out what's cool about snapchat. I have downloaded this onto my phone like, three times, and I try to use it, and I just cannot get it.

But like, my sister uses it all the time. Oh, my friends used to use instagram. I don't want those instagram. Yeah, I mean, I love twitter, and I get it, but it's easier to get. And it makes more sense to me and don't even know always snapchat. So snatcher probably wrong. Yeah, you're asking the wrong guy, because here's the thing I do not understand, man. There's you cannot replace somebody snaps. So once you watch, somebody snapped, you can't watch it again, right?

So if you like, turned your head or something, you're had your your focus taken away for so it's it's like a feed. Yeah, well, it's like you'll see that that you've gotta snap from somebody or somebody posted snap and so you click on it and it'll just play. See, that is so. And then you have, like, three seconds toe, replay it once, and then after that, you can't play it again. I mean, that's interesting, because in a world of, like, permanence were like everything you say and do.

And this is like, on the road, that's that's why it's so it's rare, and it's very image based, too. So you consumed shit that you don't want people to see and, you know, twenty four hours, but they won't be able to see it in twenty four hours because it'll be gone. So yeah, I see, I get that part of it, but just the way it works, just I don't like it because I like, I like that permanence. I mean, I love limitations on art forms, right?

That is a very I think, great things, like twitter, you know, one hundred hundred carries find seven seconds of video. There's a fucking funny ass vines out there, and it's because they're so short and they have to have like these quick little jump cuts and you know, you just figure out how to adapt to that, and that's what I love about you adapt to it. Instead of making the tool for you, you adapt to the tool.

And that's funny because my friend here, who has a lot of these questions or most of these, says that or he is a quote or that he found somewhere that something like, we create tools, are we? We tools imitate us, and then we imitate tools or something like that. You know, like tools imitate our behavior in the way they extend, like a fork extends our finger teeth or something. It's the tools imitating us.

But then then what? As things evolve, we started taking pickles, and it's kind of it's so first of all, that's alright, we're to use. But but it was what you just said. It reminded me of that. Yeah, it's like era. Yeah. So I love that I love limits. Limits are so important and um, that's what's kind of weird about this. The world right now is that there's so many things that are kind of unlimited, like you, khun, go on to your facebook feed and just keep scrolling and scrolling, scrolling and just never stop it.

It's just unlimited entertainment, and it's like david foster wallace. He's got that book, infinite jest, which all the hipsters, reed, you know, and I've only read like the first two hundred pages. But it's the book that all the hipsters pick up intending to finish but never dio because it's one thousand pages long. Were you seeing the you're a hipster? Yes, completely, of course, but I just want to get that.

Let it be known that I admit to my hipster dumb anyway, um, in infinite jest. The main like plot device in the story is this thing called the entertainment, which is like a it's it's a cartridge for this tv like device. Kind of like a it'd be like a videotape or whatever. Or, like a gameboy game or, like, yeah, yeah, something like that, anything like that. But it's so entertaining and captivating that you can't stop watching it.

And so you end up just sitting there until you, like, lose all control of your body. You know, you stop eating. You just sit there and watch because you're so captivated by it. And david foster wallace killed himself because he was so disenfranchised with this or not disenfranchised but disillusioned with what it was that booker and ninety three five ninety six. Okay, something like that in the nineties.

Yeah, and I that's been like a major major. The point. I don't know that the drugs was very profound. It was very profound, you know, very prophetic. Like today, whenever you know, you can get on your twitter feed and just keep scrolling or get on instagram and just keep looking at pictures there, get on youtube and just keep watching videos and just keep watching videos and there's just no end. You know, it's an infinite loop, all right?

It's an infinite jest, you know, just it's all a constant barrage of entertainment, and it's not real. It's not anything. It's just information. Yeah, yeah and yeah, there's this is the information age. That's what they say, right? Well, I feel like information has kind of taken the place of experience. You know, like we've got netflix. You can just watch and watch and watch. And you've got all these, like our our generation, especially super into pop culture.

So are you saying that people like entertainment has the song? Uh, like we're talking about this earlier, before we started recording, or even for your shakes. But is that, uh, entertainment? People are living vicariously through you? Yeah, they're in the same it through the entertainment. It's yeah, it's kind of become a substitute for experience, right? Which is which it always has been. Probably, yeah, but it's become more and more strong.

It's like a drug that's gotten stronger and stronger over the years. It's like we'd you know, the way that your parents were smoking back. Your parents weren't smoking weed. I know. But the way that your parents would be smoking back in the sixties is was way less potent strains that they've, you know, selectively picked these days. And that's a thing. We've had this artificial selection of entertainment that has just made it better and better and better.

So I wonder if is but is this is interesting. It is entertainment getting closer to experience. You know, that's a good question. So if you're reading a news article, you know, in the in the fifties or whatever about such and such happened, you know, nowadays you're watching, you're watching like, ah, not only you're not reading about like, oh, ah, the cops in dallas or whatever city was we're going to put on your v r headset and you're going to be put into this youtube video of the cop.

Actually, well, actually, there are some things you're going to be like, so that's where the bullet whizzing by your head or something. So it has to be. The world becomes more virtual like that. Maybe maybe one day entertainment will be experienced. It never will be, though it can try and try. Will there be any experience? I think there's going to be so you know how there's that thing, the uncanny valley.

I don't know what that means. Uncanny valley with regards to like robotics. And it's it's where if there's a thing that's an artificial being, for instance, like a robot, and it's got, like, really lifelike flesh on it, looks like a person, and it almost talks like a person. But there's still just something that's not quite right about it, you know? And that's it makes it even creepier then, like a robot that does not look like us, right?

Because it's like kind of close to it. And I think there's gonna be an uncanny valley with experience, too, like where we're going to get these things that are really close to being like real experiences. But there's going to be this weirdness about it. I wantto one of the experiments that I don't do this. But I thought about doing it tonight, and I want to always, like design a program that does this.

But I want to put on like, a piece of music, or I want someone to listen to these musical I like this. And then I want to just trip amount and say this was told this was made completely by a computer via computer and whether it's true or not, I don't think I just want to see you there. I don't think you know what their responses. Yeah, I don't think people would be nearly as weirded out by these days is rightly might, but it becomes like I think now, if it's got vocalizations in it, though, like, oh, that would be not dude, I have I have ideas for this anyways, it's not discussing now, but i'll tell you about later.

But, I mean, I do think one day I means inevitable people were going in that direction. It seems like and maybe we can't get perfectly closer, right? Whatever. But were we arguing direction? And so things were going tio evolve and change what means to be human and maybe experience there be something mohr than experience will be. I I'm I'm not making sense right now. Anyways, I apologize. I think about that.

Yeah, it's, you know, like, experience is the ultimate thing. Like, you know, to experience something, um, is like the firsthand account, but but maybe there is something above experience which will be one ones were capable of. Once entertainment becomes experience. Let's just say, maybe there's some there's, like, next level off of things like, you know what's after the internet did these types of questions that we just don't even know what we're asking for?

Yeah. Anyways, here's what I was going to ask you off. Unrelated question. Let's do it. Okay, well, first of all, let's let's try toe be done by three. Twenty hits. Three or two now. Twenty minutes. How's that sound? We can try for that. Well, it's right. Okay. Three. Thirty. All right, because we've got here, like, five questions. Yeah, this is do you have there? Ah, to pay for something like that. That's okay. That's okay.

Um, I preferred when it's not jumping around anyways. But what's that most significant difference between men and women? Physical aside? Um, a feeling of control of being in charge of your own existance. I feel like, um, there's I mean, I'm a I am a staunch supporter of planned parenthood and, you know, making sure that men are not legislating women's bodies. And that's one of the biggest thing that scares me about trump's america, which, while I do think that I kind of wanted trump to get, you know, elected just because I wanted to, I thought she might need to get worse before it gets better.

But the scariest part of the whole thing is just the if he gets like a another conservative supreme court justice and that person could technically overturn roe versus wade, which, you know made abortion illegal, right? And missouri and kansas have the worst fight between planned parenthood and the stupid republican legislatures. Right now where you've got all these republican legislatures who the only reason half of them are in office is because they're district have been so jerry mander dh over the last fifty years that there's there's not.

They've packed all of the, you know, they've split up all the minorities and thinks that they can actually win their districts in certain air in certain areas, not everywhere. But that's funny that you mention it because I remember asking is sheila she long? She's ah, he's a friend of mine and she's real political, and she works for like the capital or she works in the capital. Rather, and but I asked her like, what would you do on your first if you rule the world, would you on your first day and like she just like jumps into the districting?

No, she's just like complete get away, do away with jerry mannering, invulnerable of law. And since then I've I didn't even know what your remaining was then. But since I have heard it talked about a lot, just probably because I know what the word means. And therefore I always talked about the last five years or whatever. But anyways, it's a big deal, and it really judges. I mean, the fact that thing is democrats or progressive democrats would think that that is an immoral thing to dio and, of course, have never tried to do it.

And so you have these republicans who are you in the unfortunate stance of having to try to conserve what they already have. You know, they're conservatives and you got the progressives. They're trying to take everything away from them, so they're defending themselves, and this is one of their tools of their defense. Ah, and it's just it's really unfortunate. There should be like an amendment against it or something.

But anyway, that's what we have now. And ah, it's ended up with. That's the reason that most of the legislature's in the united states state legislatures are republican, and that's the reason that planned parenthood has been such under harsh attack. Ah, and I'm just I'm really worried about it. I think that, you know, it could close this one down. They won't be able to do a portions anymore. And not even that.

Like, if they're trying to take away all funding to anybody who does provide abortions and while they do provide abortions, it's like they do so much other good stuff, right? And I don't know any way I could sit here and seeing the president's. Interestingly, because recently you interview when trump was elected became president, like they asked him in an interview like about the supreme court justice that you nominate and he's like I'm pro life of law.

Music will happen well in will happen when it's overturned or something, he said. It'll go back to the states or whatever. I don't really know how it works, and I don't remember the exact. So if I say this lightly wrong apologized. But but and then he's like, you know, go back to the states and then and then people person earrings that, well, what they do, and he's like, well, they may just have to go to a different state again.

Abortion and then that was interesting to me. Well, that's already the case in many states, but but on an unlevel is interesting just because, you know, he didn't pull out the line like abortion is wrong and bad, and I want abolish it, you know, like completely is, you know, I want to be that thing dead. He who said, you know, he's ok with it or he's okay with that. Having this nation like he's it's not.

And that's just an example of trump saying things get elected and whatever you know, saying I'm against I'm pro life, but you know, can you really be pro life quote? Unquote and then still be like, oh, yeah, just go do that. And saito abortion e I mean, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, I mean, since I mean, then you start getting into the thing like what is? You know, truth is facts, truth that's not even relevant anymore.

Like then that's because of the like we were talking about the media cycle on the to the media camps, you know, where they're all just trying to give the opposite of what the other person's getting or just what they think that their constituents he wants to hear. All right, but but yes, that's that's what scares me the most about about this whole thing is that women are women. The big difference between men and women.

Thanks. I was about to give actus. Yes. Women are do not have that feeling of control over over their bodies, which is very unfortunate. They don't have that feeling in general now. In general, in general, they're constantly where you like the people I was consoling after trump got elected. We're all just women that were a lot of them were just women that we're worried about what was going to happen to their reproductive, right?

What do you mean, like, they don't. They're worried about their control of their reproductive rights. Like if they if they were to get pregnant unintentionally, they wouldn't be able to go gook right if they wanted. Teo, you know, go. I mean anything. If if planned parenthood closes, it takes away a lot of women's freedoms because they are the three main voice for women's reproductive rights. And yeah, so I feel a lot of white male guilt for that, right.

So I see. Just to clarify, like, you are saying that, um, women don't have control over, you know, total control, whether they want to get pregnant, for example, biologically. And so therefore that, like, whether or not they will reproduce a child, his dick tembe will be determined by the government. Yes. You know, because in the legislation at the sex, sex is a drug that many people are addicted, tio.

And it's not you're not going to get people to stop doing it. You're not going to be able to say I just don't have sex like no or just oh, you gotta have safe sex. It's like you can say those things. But whenever it happens, you know accidents happen, and we have hospitals to fix people's arms and stuff. Why can't we have something to fix a family situation where they're having an unwanted child? And now this all goes into like, well, just the child like a person and blah, blah, blah.

And this goes back to a religious question more than anything, in my opinion of does the child have a soul? Are we killing a child as you can, you know, yeah, you know, and on this subject, briefly, it's funny because I remember in two thousand, the two thousand election in two thousand four to some extent that you know, ah, rule voters or I can't actually speak for you know where I grew up because I wasn't exist anywhere else but in the churches the priest would be like, you know, we cannot let abortion ah, lovable, evolve law.

We have to elect such and such to prevent the catholics of the worst about you. But it's funny because what's funny about it, I will say, is that it was very clear and they were the catholic priest at the time. I'm almost sure of it just, you know, like I was saying, bush is, you know, we have to, like, push whatever. And I remember my history teacher who was a catholic, but very, you know, very well rounded person in a very good teacher, the best teacher in the school.

In fact, no. A lot almost everyone would consider, probably at the time when he was there. And, you know, he was like, appreciate not be telling me how to vote and he said this many, many times and you know, anyways, but what I thought was interesting and this may be just meet growing up in vienna and now living in colombia were obviously the a consensus of the people. It's our the berlin several aces here, and but that priest this election, because I play in the catholic church, still piano and what not.

And he well, he was. He never specifically said who developed for, but he was talking about it, and he never really specifically talked about abortion, but he kind of he was talking about it, but in the most general way. And I'm like, this is like, such different and blah, blah, blah called sort of anything really talk about abortion, but but I just feel like in terms of a priest talking about a candidate for election in both situations, they're both talking about the election, and they're both talking about candidates.

But in one, this most recent one or donald trump versus hillary, right, like it was extremely abstract, extremely ambiguous. And I was I was not even sure who he was saying you should go for blood. He probably wasn't saying you should vote for bob. Well, he was just like saying we should vote for hearts and the audio like this trying teo, figure out what I'm like, who you telling me to vote for? That's what I wanted.

But he was just very good at at not saying, not incriminating himself. I guess you could say, but so I don't know. Things have changed. Anyway, I was just kind of side point, but I guess what I really want ass is what's the biggest between men and women. Besides the physical nature of our bodies come well, I mean, if I wanted to be controversial or say something that would get a bunch of it's a controversial questions.

I know it's a fading I would talk about, you know, how men are driven to be more competitive and blah, blah, blah and women are more of like the mother leave blah, blah and, you know, they're all more gentle and they want, you know, they they hold, like a certain ideals differently than we dio. But those aren't those aren't the real questions. I mean, yes, we're different. We're different. Chemistry wise were different.

Our bodies being different is what makes our minds different. Right? But I'm still yeah, I'm just still sticking with it, like, you know, women right now, women have this fear that there not going tio be ableto their own decision. That is so really everyone our age is talking about that or every woman our age in all conversations have been the last a few weeks. So yeah, so so if you were walking down the street today and you make yourself as a twelve year old go, this is moving on here.

Well, why would I tell him what would you tell? I'd tell him. Wait a year before going to college. Tell him. Ah, yeah. Wait a year before going to college. Jake murder. This is good. It's like a reunion year. Yeah. How's it going, jake? Little interview here. Toby gave me this bob dylan dvd. Is it really? Yeah. His old bob dylan songs. Oh, boy. Good fellas. Oh, that's a smart score. Says he's on the phone. Yeah, it's a good how you been, man.

That's cool, a little interruptions. Yeah, we should wrap it up soon. It's the, uh, working it and working at the bar boulevard. It's been pretty great so far. I can't complain. Yeah, the city's kind of a little harder, you know, live in here, but it's not bad. I believe that it changes every time I come back, but I don't know. I've just how safe it felt here. You know, like you could stumble home drunk at three in the morning here, not have to worry about getting jumped or anything like that.

For the most part, for the most part, you know, usually wouldn't even run into a single person as your offing home. But here are in kansas city as totally different game, and I live like, really close to the income divide that is troost avenue. So you got a lot of riffraff from the other side of the road, and then you've got, like, the newly gentrified area that I live in. And it's weird. It's good city.

I like it when the job's awesome of the people I work with. Get a bunch free beer talked to a bunch of people about beer. It's that bad. Yeah, it's pretty good. So far, I like you a lot, but I do miss this place. Uh huh. Jake, if you get a chance, come by tonight, I invite you on facebook to this I don't remember. You know I haven't. We'll get together, amelia. Colin, it's thanksgiving. Okay? I have peace paper to write this down.

But six o'clock tonight. Six o'clock seventeen. I'm like you say my address of ears and hang out. Yeah, it should be quite a few people there anyway. Hopefully, who's that? Who's counting liquor these days? Out. That sounds right. That's weird, really, I'm sure. Of course. It's always bad by now. To get somebody just count what? Really, except when you're in their climate over cakes. Kinda like climate over cakes downstairs.

Oh, yeah, that sucks, but cool. Um, that much I saw father john misty couple months ago. And I saw nick thor burn from islands. You know, that ban the unicorns, natural progression from the unicorns. That was a pretty good show. Yeah. Nice. That's about it. Yeah, I've been to a couple of, like, can see festivals and stuff, but it was all like, local acts and whatever, but hey, wait, what is this song? This is I played this trio.

I play this song in it. My ears were just like I know that song. I want to play drums. What do you notice? That's the name? Don't don't go down. I don't care. I like because there's this one section there's a point where I don't don't don't don't don't the end of the very and I go into devil time thing no, and it's probably not even called for in the song because I've never heard the real song but I just like adding double time or not.

Double time behalf, time, things wherever I can in this little fun you're playing spice it out. Let's make it really doping. I don't know. I don't know what you're fucking doing well all right. Give discount. All right. You come out tonight, if you can. Yeah. All right. Let's let's go. These last question there. Let's have a lightning round fighting around. Good sweet. Put in order. Put order these w words ok in order of importance.

Okay. Who? What when? Where, why? Who what? Where was the first being the most important? Where when? Well, I here i'll let you look at this. Usually I know with the words. I know, but when you get to the fourth, when you're like wait, what was options again? All right first. Why second? Ah. First is why second is where. Third is when. Fourth is what in the last one is who so the who's least important dio? I do think so.

That's interesting, okay. If you were a chair, who would you want to sit in? You? Ah, what? I want to sit on me living or dead? Anything. Anybody? Well, I guess anybody I feel like this is like a poorly disguised sexual question. Poorly. This guy. Ah, I would say this is such a dumb question. Alright, say pass. No, I think if somebody to sit with me, you don't. But that's z going. Going back to the last question.

Why? Why would somebody be sitting in me? Why would I want somebody to sit in me? You know, good answer. I don't. Is it because I want to, like, feel them? Is it because I want to, like, ask them a question? What if part of me are they sitting on? I'm just asking questions, but all right, glenn. Yeah, I would say whoever is tired, uh all right. Who answer these ones? Quick issue can. Who started it all? Who started it all?

Who started it all who started it all? That's when you say who's not important. I already answered that. Yeah, I'd say what started off could. Why did it all start? Why did also you know, that's a bad question. Why did it all start is a stupid question. I don't think there's anything through that. What started it all? Are we going to make it? You know who's cleaning it up? God, is it serious? Let that answer this question.

Ah, no. I'm going to say it's not serious. I mean, see, this is going back to the hole like permits of this interview where it's just been like, is it worth even carrying about, you know, I mean, it's serious. Yes, you could say that, but is it worth being seriously affected by it on? On what occasion do you like? On what occasion do I? Bye. Whenever I'm disappointed in myself. And who are you lying to? Whoever I'm telling about whatever part of me is I'm disappointed with, okay?

What is the function of music? No, the's last few questions with music related because I know you're in the music. Yeah, function of music function means a function music, function of music. Well, it's the same as any function of art, I think, to elicit to either. Yeah, as an artist, I feel like the only what draws you to make art for me. Anyway, it's because I want to elicit some emotion I'm feeling from other people.

I want other people to empathize with whatever I'm feeling. And so you turned it into a work of art to try toe, you know, make other people feel that same emotion or think that same thing. And I think music is the same exactly the same. You know you want you play minor keys to make people sad and you know, you know, right, happy music to make him happy. So to communicate emotion communicating motion, I think that's what most art is all about.

And then there's abstract art, too, which is still, I think, just communicating emotion. You know, it's all like even the most weird shit, like the most pointless looking are like a jackson pollock or something. I still think there's like some kind of emotion. He's he's trying to impart their ok, regardless of how good the execution is. Think that's kind of the point of it. Yeah, the same with music, regardless of how good the execution is.

I mean, there's people. Okay, so there's people that make music that does not have much emotion. I guess you could say two. There's music with a lot of artificial emotion. But I think it's still you know the same thing. It's just tryingto even music that tries to be like anti music. You know, like some of on guard shit. That's a tonal and no riel. No, really like structure. Not really like a thing that you would want to listen to and like be like oh, this makes you feel happy or oh, this kind of like makes me feel sad it's more like, oh, this is sounds so weird that it's like making me feel kind of like isolated or kind of like like I don't understand what's going on and I feel like that's a much of a point is as like a more direct song.

You know we're right. It's got an obvious emotion or message associates, so you can't escape either way. I think that's got to be with this. There's going to be sending elimination. There's no other. I mean, it's it's pervasive throughout all all art, and I think music is the same way. So what qualities most artists bring to their work, regardless of the era, medium or technology, a genuine character, a feeling that what they're saying is really it's what they're saying is what they're playing is from the heart.

You know, this. All the tropes about music. It's like tryingto express myself through my music. But what was the question exactly? Again, it was. What qualities must artists bring to their work, regardless of the era, medium or technology? Do you have a genuine nature? Ah. I think. A limit like e. I think there needs to be a limit to what they have available to them, because there's so much music that's like, overproduced.

And you know, these artists who like back in the sixties and fifties and forties, they had, like, you know, these huge studios with, like, full orchestra bands and everything in the music just sounded so fake, no overproduced and fake. And in the digital age, especially, you know, I used to really hate electronic music in general. I just thought it was fake, and I didn't see the rial. Real nous, innit?

And I can't felt like I had, like, an uncanny valley kind of thing going on with music. But over time, you know, I just kind of learned teo notice that it's about you can still be genuine in music. You can still be riel and authentic in digital music. Um, and just as much so as you can. Analog music, but no, no, I think it's really just about being a real artist being genuine. Yeah, we're thinking coming up.

I just hate that fake shit. That's why I hate pop music, so just fake. I don't know. Okay. All right. Well, for the last question it is. Please tell me something good. Not it's not really a question, I guess. Tell me something good that you've never had and you never want. I've heard cocaine's pretty good, and that's one of those things, like i'll be at a bar, something like somebody to be like you and some cooking, just like no, really.

I mean, I hear it's pretty great, but everybody I've talked to has just been like off. You haven't done it, don't even bother. And so that's that something great that I've never had, but I never want. Well, I feel like luxury items. Most of them, you know, soaking. There's a luxury that's true, too. But, you know, like some kind of like suit that you can't wear in the rain some kind of, you know, shoes that you're scared to step in a puddle with, right like that.

That stuff is silly to me. It's so silly. It's so impractical. Practicality, practicality. I feel like that's you go back to the last question with that one to practicality is so important in a lot of things, like in music, especially to like, it goes back to like the simplicity of are being overproduced and everything. But, yeah, just being practical is I feel like that what makes someone seem more genuine than anything, realizing that there making decisions based on reasons that you would as well where you have, like, people like kanye who khun just like, go out there and say, I would have voted for trump.

And you're just like, why the fuck would you say that? And that? Just like, takes away all of his genuineness to me. Time now, uh, that's the theme of this interview. No, that's what you think. I actually speculation, speculation? Yeah, I was going to talk about kind of with them, so yeah, it's all ravenal. But anyways, long short is thanks for joining me here today, caleb, you know, from what about what goes best lesson.

What about fame? That's what I've been going, right? Yeah, I know you hear all these horror stories about fame, actually, but, you know, have you ever seen comedians in cars, comedians in cars getting coffee? Have you seen the one with obama? Uh, no. What a lot of people. That's funny, because I asked a lot of people who see in this show and they're like, I've only seen the one with obama. It's just like, that's the least comedian, you know?

Yeah, I don't think I saw that one. That's when it well, it's worth seeing. But, I mean, there's one point where jerry asked him, what do you miss the most in obama's like my an immunity or anonymity and and I can't have never said. That's why jeff gordon lives in new york city b juries. Response to that is like, really, do you really miss not being famous? Because in jerry, you know, he's saying the unexpected thing.

Everyone was. Oh, yeah, I wish I wasn't finished that have all famous people seem to say, but there's like, no, no, no, being famous is great. Life is much better now with famous, and I just think it's kind of interesting. Yeah, but but, yeah, jerry also just says things to be funny. Yeah, that's it. And that's another thing I've learned from comedians. And he's like, a good comedian is necessarily always, like, mean what they say.

They just say things, toby. Funny, because that's what their job is to make funny things. Not very genuine. That's probably not, but he probably wouldn't even believe what he was. It's just said about that either. You know, in another day, he might go. You no, no, no. It's that's totally bunk. Why did I say that? So, yeah, let's wrap it up. Just if I get the bathroom again. All right. Thanks for having. Yeah, thanks for thanks for being here.

Thank you, joseph. It's such an honor to be a part of this. Siri's. I was waiting, waiting, waiting toe. I know once we you're so excited about your job went like, oh, yeah, let's do that before you leave a big idea. And then, like, he never happened. And I'm like, I guess he was just too excited about getting the hell out of here. You know, it happened so fast, so yeah. Yeah, we got to do. Finally. All right, justin.

Thank you. Take care, man.